{Monday, July 30, 2007
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I frequently debate with people about my faith. This debate transpired months ago but I thought I'd paste it here so people can see why I choose to believe, and the evidence I have to support my faith.
This is a debate on www.bondevia.com regarding religion. So read on if you have an open mind, to see the points we all make to support our perspective. Should you be close minded or conservative, I recommend you don't read this post. It is completely unedited, and I hope it will help you gain a better perspective of our respective beliefs.
Kudos to the Bondevia crew for an engaging post and enjoyable website.
February 28th, 2007 by Nicholas
Hello there, Kid here. I know, I know, the name Kid is pretty childish, and I am indeed childish, but that doesnt mean what I wish to bring across is nonsense.
Before I continue however, I would like to mention that for those people who are sensitive to religious topics, please click the little X button on the top right hand side of your screen, or click on another link in Bondevia.com.
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I would like to address a more serious side of life, religion. I am personally an atheist, which means, I dont believe in theism, which is the belief in a higher power. I believe that everything is, and can be proven scientifically, given enough time.
I notice there are a great many Singaporeans who are fanatics, for example, in Ah Xiang’s friendster account, there is a ,”I love ____*insert various deities/higherpowers here*!” and he devotes a considerable amount of time, effort and cash into his religion. Ah Xiang also spends a large amount of energy bringing his friends to his places of worship, trying to let them experience the wonders of their religion.
Ah Xiang, here is what Kid has to say. =)
Firstly, do you believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution? For the uninitiated, it is basically the theory that life evolves, through natural selection. We evolve to cope with the changing situations and environments. In that essence, we, humans, used to be Ape-men. If you believe that we evolved from Ape-men, slowly becoming what we are today, then you do NOT believe in religion. If you believe we are made like that, from thin air, or earth, or reincarnated, then you believe in religion. By the way, an interesting sidenote would be that chimpanzees have a DNA likeness of 99% against us. They have learnt to use tools, and are aware of emotions and feelings. In that sense, if they had speech, and had a slightly more intelligent brain, they could easily double up as one of the many human races that walk this planet today.
Secondly, if Religion was true, there would be no dinosaurs. T-rex, Brontosauraus, Raptors. Everything that you see on national geographic about dinosaurs is a BIG FAT LIE. There was no prehistoric age, earth existed only when Man was born. Yeap. These giant monster fossils are fake, all a fake. Science can prove these bone ages, and they date back a few million years. But then again, it would be false right? Hmmm.
Thirdly, there are no aliens out there. Hmm. When you consider the size of the earth, in this video -
Earth is really, really small. There are billions, trillions of other planets out there. And we, Earth, is the one special planet in the billions, that can support life. Go figure.
On to the forth point. Ah Xiang, sex is a holy thing right? It is a special thing that a Higher Being granted to us, for us to sow the seeds of a new generation! Then again, how come, every bloody single creature out there in this world, reproduce by the exact same bloody way? Sperm Meets Egg. Junior Ah Xiang is born! Whoo! Holy-crap.
Fifth! Bear with me now, my last point! Ah Xiang, IF you believe that the galaxy was made within 7 days, and not slowly created through the ages of time. you believe in Religion. =D
On that note, I leave my final comment. There are many many other reasons why Aethism seems possible, and believeable. These are merely my views, and my expression of distaste to people who claim they love their religion, are prepared to die by it, but do not understand it.
With a famous quote, “What is a crusade and jihad? It is basically a battle, to see whose imaginary friend is stronger.”, I rest my case.
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29 Responses to ' About religion and my thoughts. '
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kid said,
on February 28th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Diplodicus, a member of the sauropod family, had no chewing teeth to eat grass with. Saurapods had long necks, so that they might eat leaves from trees, way up, where other herbivores could not reach. So, according to Job, Behemoth is said to eat grass like an ox. Sauropods do not eat grass, they do not even have the teeth to eat grass.
The phrase “He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.” does NOT mean that his tail is like a cedar! It meant that his tail MOVES like a cedar.
Anyhoo, a professional translator Stephen Mitchell published his own translation, and it read “Look: the power in his thighs, the pulsing sinews of his belly. His penis stiffens like a pine; his testicles bulge with vigor.” not exactly the same as it once was huh. =)
kid said,
on February 28th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I do admit however, that religion IS inherently good! There is no fault in that, living a good, religious life. Donating to charity, doing good deeds, not sinning. Commendable, and if everyone is like that, the world would be a better place to live in. There is nothing wrong. I’m just stating my Aethism views and hope people understand what they preach and declare.
Ys said,
on March 13th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Hey Bond
Just some comments. I admire your guts in posting a rather sensitive topic here. But I do find some views rather flawed. just to state a few.
1) There are many religions. Under the main religions, there are many different sub types, the orthodox ones and the unorthodox ones. So to say believing in evolution means one does not believe in religion is not correct. People do believe God acts through evolution.
2) Chimpanzees are 99% like us I agree. But if evolution is really true, why dont we see Chimpanzees turning into human beings now? Hmm..seenms like evolution stops after the first successful evolution from chimpanzees to man.
3) Nope. There could still be dinosaurs in religion.
4) Aliens are creatures which can be seen but we do not see them. A higher being is someone whom we cannot possibly see but we know they are present.
5) I dont really see the sex part though. You mentioned that there are other reasons why Atheism seems possible. But there are also other reasons why religion is plausible. So the argument/viewpoint doesnt stand.
It may be abit presumptous for someone your age to conclude at this point in time. Anything is possible, like what you say, given time. But on a lighter note, I think you are a really cool person. Hope you dont get offended by what I wrote=)
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 12:46 am
Aye, that is me, not Bondevia. Kid.
To counter your points,
1)I stand corrected, there MIGHT be some religions that supports evolution, but to that I do not know of any. So you might be correct in this point, if your “God” that you refer to is not the ones I have in mind.
2) Why don’t we see Chimpanzees evolving into humans now? Because, evolution is an extremely, long process, and changes are seen only after many generations. You do not expect to see new species of intelligent beings after only having lived on earth for so short a time do you? Compared to the Dinosaurs, human existence on Earth is but a trifle of the time they spent. How would we see evolution then, with this only being year 2007? If you do not believe in evolution, then every creature on earth can be classified, because technically, they would be the SAME animals that existed when humankind was given the power of speech and writing. How is it possible then, that there are hundreds of new living creatures being discovered?
3) And nope, there could be no dinosaurs in religion. But there is no proof my friend. Anyone can say this, or that, but proof is needed. Faith, is not an answer. Do not quote, *but the bible says it is so,* because frankly, I don’t believe in the Bible. =)
4) In my point, Aliens are beings that come from another planet, they CAN be seen should we encounter any. I am saying that IF there are aliens, wouldn’t it prove religion to be moot? I am stating that for Earth to be the ONLY planet in the universe, or, if you DO believe in the universe, it is statically impossible for us to be the only living creatures.
5) For the sex part, I was referring to the “love must be centered around a holy purpose thingy, and that it is a sin to have sex with someone who is not your wife, because marriage is a holy union of two souls, binding them as one and so on.* So what’s so special about sex that we have and that animals don’t? We know for a fact that dolphins have fun having sex, so why can’t we? Is it that holy?
Following this quote from you,
“You mentioned that there are other reasons why Atheism seems possible. But there are also other reasons why religion is plausible. So the argument/viewpoint doesn’t stand.”
In every debate, there is a for, and against side. If there were NO reasons at all to make religion plausible, it wouldn’t be an argument/viewpoint anymore, would it. It would be a statement, to tell you that religion is false.
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 12:59 am
I’m sorry if I came down to harsh, its just that I cannot resist a good ol’ fashioned debate. I’m cool with you! =)
bondevia said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 3:37 am
Chill chill… Haha, YS u got the wrong guys. It was Kid who typed that entry:) Not me.
But nonetheless I reallly appreciate your response. It stimulates discussion and I like that.
Hope to hear from you more often:)
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
i love discussions, especially against bondevia. Muahahhaah.
Nickeo said,
on March 16th, 2007 at 2:16 am
This post rocks. Although I disagree with Darwin’s theory of evolution coz I believe in my religion, I support without a doubt, that the “religion fanatic” featured in the post above is clearly a pain in the neck.
And I’m cutting straight to the point, most of the time, they’re christians.
Quoted from a msn nickname of one of my contacts:
“Be a man, do the right thing, Be a Christian, do it for Christ”
“You’re not whole, when you do not embrace Christ”
Are they trying to imply that by not being a christian, I’m wrong and not a man? Who gave them the right, whatsoever, to criticize and be skeptical towards the integrity of others?
We know you adore and praise your religion, but please, if you want others to respect yours, respect others first.
Kid said,
on March 18th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Thanks for the input Nickeo, that was the main point I was trying to convey. =)
Ys said,
on March 18th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Apologies to Bond. SO its kid who’s making his points. Cool man.
1) Glad you agree with me on that point.
2) SO sorry to disppoint you again about the point on evolution. Coz I happen to do abit of study on it. To date, there is NO EVIDENCE on fossils of creatures evolving into another form being found. You may want to do a bit of research on this. Hundreds of new living creatures are being explored. Why not? We still do not know every single organism yet..even though these creatures had already been formed long long ago. An intelligent perspective may be to talk about mutation though. Mutation does happen..but it doesnt change an organism of an species into another species, only a deviation of its form.
3. Nope, I am not going to quote faith as an answer to that why dinosaurs still can exist in religion. But then again, if you do not believe the bible and do not know the bible well, how do you know why dinosaurs are not mentioned in there? Not mentioned = non existent?
4. Do you consider microorganisms living things? If you do, there is indeed living things on other planets. Earth is not the only planet. Why would that prove religion moot?
5. Still dont really get the sex part. Haha..who says we cannot have sex in a fun way? You mean sex is fun so it cannot be a holy thing? Link? Fun cannot equal holy?? Or you mean why animals can have sex with so many other of their kinds while we cannot? Well, thats what sets us apart from animals, certainly chimpanzees as well, because we have morals and animals dont?
6) Ya lor, every argument has a for and against. Did i say there isnt? The reason why I mentioned that is because you seem to be an theist just because you think that there are many reasons why atheism is possible. This is regrettably not very wise. There are many reasons why I want to go swimming today, but if the swimming pool is closed down, I would have made a wasted trip!
And to Nickeo, the cool dude, the implication you mentioned, I am afraid is wrong. Who says non chirstians are not man?? Hey hey, i respect other religions alot. Mayb you get the wrong idea. Not all christians are perfect. But thats the main reason why we are Christians. Not that we can be perfect right away, but it is something which we believe and keeps us going.
Yup, that should be it. I am Not a religion fanatic because i dont see christianity as a religion but that’s besides the point.
Thank you Bond for giving us space to debate on your blog. It is cool having people like us right!!
Cheerios!
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 5:02 am
alrite kid… i’m here to take a shot at debating too, dun mind my typing style, kinda lazy to type properly
and i am a Christian, so i’ll be taking my standpoint from there
1stly, there is no definitive proof of evolution… is there direct evidence of evolution? none at all. no fossil evidence is provided where it shows immediate linking of different species. darwinist optimists proposed that these fossils to prove evolution would be found within a short amount of time. till now none have been found. plenty of fossils are found all the time, yet none show ne proof of evolution at all. considering that evolution says that every single organism came from non-living things, fossils of evolution would have been found everywhere from all stages of life from countless points in time. but there are none. this is strong evidence (or lack thereof) against evolution. on a side note, chimps have 94% similar DNA to us, 99% was a widely quoted percentage, but in actual fact its 94%. not that is changes our similarities however. while the similarity in DNA is remarkable, it doesnt conclude that we came from a related ancestor, or else there would be fossil evidence of it aplenty. after all, there are so many ancient fossils of humans which continually push back the timeline of when homo sapiens 1st appeared. yet none show signs of evolution. the human fossils and other primate fossils are different species.
by saying that dinosaurs dun exist if we believe in religion, i assume ur talking about the 6 days of creation in Christianity. other than that, there’s not much in other religions which explicitly states that dinosaurs did not exist. not even Christianity says that dinosaurs din exist. while some ppl disagree, i believe that the 6 days is figurative, as in 1 day in the genesis account is actually a very broad period of time. and so 6 days of creation equals to 6 times that very large period referred to as a “day”. alot of things in the bible are portrayed figuratively… that no harm will come from consuming bad things, that mountains can be moved. the book of revelation is chock full of symbolism and figurative meanings. it doesnt mean everything in the bible is literal, and so the “days” in the genesis account can be long periods of time, and so dinosaurs can exist within religion.
in religion, there can be aliens, in Christianity no. raelism and scientology are examples of religions which support the theory of aliens, unless u consider them cults, but thats another case. nehoo, NASA has technology which has allowed them to see many areas in the universe, and none have showed signs of life. even life in earth is balanced on a razors edge. ppl used to think life would be to create, considering the advent of newer sciences all the time. yet to create life itself is sth of a colossal roll of a dice. u need amino acids to create life, then u need them to link in the correct way, and only left handed acids will work, rite handed ones will merely kill the process. and thats jus building proteins, having amino acids doesnt mean u’ve created life. the building blocks of life arent alive, and they still need time to evolve into simple cells, which in turn evolve into more complex life forms.. now considering that earth is only a few billion yrs old, evolution couldnt have grown this diverse in such a short amount of time. the same goes for other planets. they may be older, sure.. but life is on a razors edge on a planet that supports life. wat about other planets? most atmospheres would kill life. this is strong evidence of an Intelligent Designer.
on the issue of sex being a holy thing, yea no doubt, as a believer, i believe that its a God-given thing. u see, while every creature reproduces, for humans it is a holy thing. humans have a moral point of reference in God, and so issues of wat is moral abound. sex is immoral if done with someone other than ur spouse cuz God says so. other creatures dun have a moral point of reference becuz they dun “think” in a sense, its jus instinct. thats y we’re above the animals in the bible. creatures do it simply for existence, but God makes it known in the bible that for humans, its supposed to be sth sacred for a couple, for pleasure and reproduction, sth physical for a couple to do and become closer. u can see that in healthy relationships, sex is a healthy part of their lives as well.
on the various comments…
kid, its an urban legend that dolphins have sex for pleasure… they are more sexual than most animals for sure, but pleasure? u cant really gauge that in animals. and again, they dun have a moral framework, while humans do, which leads to my point again.
nickeo, no one insulted ur religion… lets take it in non-religious terms, Jesus Christ was (if not the most) moral living person in the world and changed lives thru the way He lived, now spirituality aside, by following His teachings, its a good thing and in a very general sense, is the rite thing to do. and now from a more religion based standpoint.. the bible says we’re fallen, and we’re lost. it doesnt say we’re morally bad and insulting u, no where in the bible does it say that. and when Christians say that ur lost without God, it means u arent saved and spiritually dead. Christ says Himself that if we believe, we are in a relationship with God again. when ur not saved, its not the fact that ur a bad person, jus lost.. dun assume. i have tons of unbelieving frens, and they know wats wrong and wats rite, but usually, they dun care if they do sth thats wrong, its not that u know wats wrong or rite, thats a given, but the will to submit to Christ and the will to do rite even if it hurts. ok, thats a little preachy already… my point is to debate, so lets get back to that…and no one’s insulting ur integrity… the bible says we’re lost, Jesus said we’re lost, many skeptics know that ppl arent born good, but require discipline to become good.. leave a young kid alone or spoil him and u’ll see a bad outcome. u ask us to respect ur religion, and likewise u should respect ours.. my religion says outrite that we’re lost and that we can be redempted, so its not us that is insulting ur integrity. my religion says itself as a statement (not an insult as u put it) that we’re lost, and my religion is aiming to save ppl again. so plz respect our religion becuz it sys that about everyone, even the Christians, we were once lost but now are saved. by accusing us of insulting u, ur basically insulting my religion, and not respecting it. we never disrespected ur religion, but proclaiming wat it says. thats not disprespect by merely an emancipation of wat we believe. so, respect our religion plz.. i respect all other religions.
indeed there’s different sources of evidence that are for and against diff issues to various extents. i believe there’s plenty of evidence to prove the Christian God. sure, plenty of other evidences also point towards other religions truths and even atheism. other evidences for Christianity.. such as i was an eye witness of someone being healed of blindness, pupils formed out of nowhere, ppl healed and my own spiritual stuff.. bt thats besides the point.
nehoo, those are my views. yea, sorry if i made ne biting comments or sounded offensive, my main aim was to jus point out my views and counter ur views… a simple debate was all i aimed for.
bondevia said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Okok, just to add a point for all of you ok. Wahaha.
I was watching Discovery Science the other day and they were showing a documentary on Homosepiens and Homoerectus.
So before I begin anything, who says there are no fossils to prove evolution my friends? We are homosepiens. And in the show they found evidence of a hybrid, a mixed homosepien and homoerectus. That could actually imply that humans might actually be a hybrid of both species. Resulting in what we are today. Highly intelligent, sociable living things.
Darwin’s Theory of evolution did mentioned something about natural selection. Isn’t it talking about us?
It is proven that we are related to homosepiens by science. It’s not just a theory anymore. So does that mean that Adam and Eve are monkeys? No pun intended here but if what the bible says is true, Adam and Eve being the first human beings. Then according to science, they should be monkeys.
Up till today I have never seen anything that has divine intervention. I have never seen a real person possessed, I have never seen demons, I have never seen god and his wonders. There is no prove to say that god actually exist. Other than the bible itself. But how credible can the information be in the bible? Afterall there are so many flaws. Can the red sea really be split apart?
The human mind is so complex that science cannot entirely decipher what’s in there. And because of this complexities, some people tend to experience stuff that are out of this world. Some of them are even psychological. Eg. Voices in the head, hallucinations etc. And because there isn’t explainations to such ‘phenomenon’ people tend to look at the divine source.
I believe in time to come, with the advancement of science, more things can be proven and explained.
Religion will only become a discipline. As we all know humans are very ill-disciplined creatures and religion is only there to ensure that we have a set of rules to follow.
Just another point, Dolphins making love for pleasure. That’s not an urban legend. How can that be an urban legend? Urban legends are stories, folklore that are thought to be true by circulating them. Like how “white” crocodile swimming in kallang river etc. Dolphins making love for pleasure that’s a theory, and a pretty accurate one. IF that you call that theory and urban legend, then I apologise to say that the bible itself is the biggest urban legend. Ok, not really urban, but no denying it could be legend.
Everyone is entitled to express themselves. So thank you for all your contributions so far.
Ys said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Woohoo
It is getting hot in here. I hope no one is hurt. It is fun debating with you guys!!
To +psycho+, you brought up so many many points. Haha..Some of them theological. maybe a bit too preachy about the reply to nickeo..haa
Evolution vs creation has been debated for centuries! Well, this is a big big field. I dont think many of us are real experts in this field. So shall we skip that? (very tiring to go into the sciency parts…though I am a science student..but I have better things to do ar..evolution doesnt interest me lei..haha)
We are classified under the taxon Homo Sapiens because of human taxonomy done by scientists who dont really believe in religion. Adam and Eve cant be monkeys..LOL!
Like what i said before, never see/haven seen yet doesnt mean non-existent. I haven seen snow..but they do exist. My point is, experience is more important than actually seeing. Though I agree, we are very visual creatures indeed. Credibility of the Bible is another whole new field of discussion. I dont mind exploring with you guys but time is not on my side as I have exams…
Humans are very ill-disciplined creatures. Why so? You thought about it before? WHy are we not inherently good?
Cheers All
bondevia said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Haha, don’t get me wrong. I like the idea of you saying “I haven seen snow..but they do exist.” I’ve heard this a couple of times already, and true enough, all of them are from christians.
Snow does exist, it can even be created by man now. It is proven by science. Doesn’t mean you haven’t seen snow means it doesn’t exist at all. Have you seen anyone split the red sea? Can anyone prove it? The answer is simple no. And we can’t just believe that story just because it is in the bible my friend. Haha. What about turning the river nile into blood? I’ve heard of red algea, but I’ve never heard of water turning into blood.
Yea, we may be too inexperience to prove our points well, but that doesn’t mean we have to deprive ourselves from discussing about it, thats how we gain experience by the way Not that I am putting words in your mouth or anything, I’m just making a harmless statement.
Anyhow, to reinforce my point that fossils of evolution do exist, you can take a look at Archaeopteryx. It is acutally half bird and half reptile. Such hybrids prove that evolution actually did take place. What about whales. They are mammals, but they look very much like fishes. There are fossils that shows how whales evolved from land living creatures to sea mammals.
Doesn’t mean the scientist that proved that we are homosepiens didn’t believe in religion means the theory of evolution is faux. They based their theory on fossil evidence and facts. You don’t expect them to look into the bible for explanatiosn right?? Right??
Yea, there are alot of things to discuss.Haha, and I would definitely love to hear more.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 20th, 2007 at 4:49 am
yikes.. 3 comments in a day! wow.. fast.. alrite, to ans bondevia’s 1st comment…
they found a hybrid hm? but if that was the case, many more fossils would have been found of such a hybrid… considering how many ancient human fossils have been found which arent human hybrids but are homo sapiens. so maybe one species of each genus messed around and had a hybrid kid, but the liger is an example of sth which doesnt support evolution, its a tiger and lion who made a hybrid baby. same goes for those 2 humans, they coulda jus ended up having sex and reproduced a hybrid, but that doesnt support evolution
for homo sepiens, we may be related, but relations doesnt necessarily mean u share similar looks. humans and chimps have 94% similar dna.. excluding the hands, i dun think 6% accounts for all the big differences u can see between the 2 species. adam and eve being the 1st humans related to homo sepiens doesnt mean they looked like monkeys. jus as a very general example, adam and eve looked like us and homosepiens looked like chimps, with a 6% diff in dna and with such different looks excluding the hands, it can apply to adam and eve and homosepiens as well.
jus as ys said, wat u havent seen doesnt mean its not true. u havent seen a demon possessed person? i had 3 of them cast outta me last yr. God is invisible, so we cant see Him, and u may have never seen God and His wonders, but i saw a woman born blind, with no pupils.. she was prayed for, and during the prayer for healing, her pupils developed.. black pupils started to form out of nowhere. she’d been blind since birth, but could see at the old old age of 70. my fren’s ex gf had cancer.. we prayed for her and she was healed of her cancer. u may not see them, but i’m an eyewitness of these things.
ppl alwys say there are contradictions in the bible.. i was once agreeing to that too, till i actually read thru it when i was saved. there are explanations for all these contradictions. like one part of the bible says that judas hung himself, another says his bowels gushed out, there’s an explanation for that. another says that saul’s head was put in the temple of ashtaroth, another says the temple of dagon, there’s an explanation for that also. also backing up the bible are all the prophecies, proven to be written many yrs prior the events. the fall of jerusalem was prophesied, and it fell, the fall of babylon and assyria were mentioned b4 they fell. the birth of Jesus, where He’d be born, and even how He’d die was recorded in the old testament books, centuries b4 crucifixion existed. even Jesus made a prophecy in the new testament and it came true less than a century. as for revelation, it speaks of things yet to come, so i cant testify on that.
religion isnt jus a set of rules to follow… in Christianity, its a relationship with God. dun mind if i get a little preachy here, but it says that we’re fallen and bound to worldly pleasures, but having this relationship with God and if we follow these “rules” as u’ve put them, we’ll be free. sexual sin, alcoholism, drugs and all are dealt with many ppl everywhere, they’ve become addicted to watever they’re doing, and are only free once they abstain from it. same goes to these “rules”, where when we follow them, we’ll be free of sin. i’m not saying we’ll be perfect, but we’re free from the hold, even tho we may have thots about it and sometimes even do bad stuff, we’re imperfect after all.
alrite, my bad for using the word urban legend on the dolphins making love for pleasure. its a theory and itsnt proven, but its widely said that its so, even tho its not proven. thats the sense i called it an urban legend. fine… a theory, i’ll use that word, but well, dun mind at least i tell u the point of view in which i used the title of urban legend, that dolphins having sex for pleasure is sth widely circulated as fact even tho it isnt.
ys… nice points.. but the bible itself says we’re inherently not good.. sorry if i’m assuming ur a Christian if ur not =/, we’ve been tainted by sin and thus arent inherently good.. we’re capable of good and evil, becuz of wat we were b4 and cuz of wat sin has done by corrupting us.
on bondevia’s 2nd comment, lol..
sure no one can prove that the red sea was split nor the river turned into blood. but many fanciful things in the bible have been proven in archaeology (did i spell that rite?). king david was thot to be a myth till excavations of the enemies of israel revealed him to be a real person. the bible mentions an underground route to jerusalem.. that too was thot to be fake, so preposterous in the ancient times.. but excavations proved it to be true. and i mentioned earlier about the prophecies. these back up the credibility of the bible.
having a hybrid of reptile and bird doesnt mean that evolution took place. maybe i dun see things from ur perspective in this sense, dun mind to clear them up in ur next comment? but from my view, how did it become a hybrid? if many species of a certain reptile and avian animal mated and produced that, it doesnt mean evolution is true, its jus like the liger. but if ur referring that from this species it split into reptiles and avian animals then thats another thing. again, i’ll needa see wat ur perspective is, or maybe i’m jus not thinking properly, i’m tired and its past 4am. ah well
speaking about birds, they’re strong evidence against evolution. how did birds develop flight? thru natural selection, this would imply that the archaeopteryx or another ancestor of modern birds regularly attempted flight. in that case this would mean that this ancestor and subsequent offspring regularly tried to flap with scales and slowly these grew into feathers which assisted in flight? in evolution, everything came from a priomordial soup, which everything came from, and so flight wouldnt have developed until some species jus continually tried for millions of yrs to fly and eventually did. no offence, but that sounds preposterous, aside from the fact it’d kill off most of the species, even animals wouldnt continually do things that they cant do. like t rex flapping its claws or humans for that matter flapping their hands and trying to fly for a few million yrs. birds are strong evidence of a Creator.
on the case of whales there’s no direct missing link (or links) showing the transition of the walking land animal to sea dwelling mammal, they’ve found fossils of both, but not the missing link in between. mudskippers have land and aquatic abilites, and so do frogs… according to evolution, and with an assumption on whales.. are those 2 species gonna evolve into purely land walking animals in a few million yrs time? ok stupid question, we wun know…but i think u get wat i mean. there is no proof of that those land walking animals became whales. related heavily sure, but then again, relation doesnt mean evolution. hippos and whales are related.
aye, jus counter commenting.. awaiting ur replies… nitez all
Nickeo said,
on March 20th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
As a reply to pyscho:
I have never, in the first place doubted the fact, that Jesus Christ was a man(can you still call him a man?)of great virtue, nor was I skeptical toward his teachings. On the contrary, yes, I do believe what the bible says. The bible says you’re fallen, well I believe human being are a fallen species; the bible says the galaxy was created in 7 days, fair enough, cuz nobody knows for sure if there was a big bang that created the Universe.
Everything that the bible says has it’s sources,(be it historical or mythological), and yes, it is true that it teaches us to be good, and filial, and to love, to be loved.
BUT, one must understand, that the bible isn’t only the religious statement that the world has to offer. One must admit and accept the fact there are other ‘high and devine’ powers present in the spheres of the world, and you musn’t deny the existence of others.
You might wonder why the hell am I saying all this, well it’s simply because although I am true towards my own religion, I accept the fact that there are other religions and highpowers that we shouldn’t doubt or question their existence. For most Chirtians I’ve met, be it my friends, relatives or even my own teachers, they strongly believe that there is only ONE ALMIGHTY, and by not submitting to HIM you soul won’t be saved, and your sins won’t be washed away. The way they preach isn’t ” believe in Christ cuz it’s good and it teaches us to be good”, but it’s rather like “there’s no way you can be free from the clutches of moral decandence and be saved if you do not sumbit to HIM”
now this might not be the way you preach, maybe you’re different, but I dare say that the majority of Chirstians preach this way. It might sound perfectly normal, even mundane to you, but to the ears of other religious believers this is offending. Most of them who preach, in a way or other, be it directly or indirectly put other religions down. They simply would not succumb to the fact that there are other highdevinebeingswemightnotevenknowofintheworld, constantly stressing that the bible is the one and only source of unraveling mankind’s deepest secrets. Now I’m not asking anybody to betray one’s religious believes, but simply underlining the importance of admitting the existence of others.
What ever happened to Zeus of Greece, to Isis of Egypt, to Odin of Denmark, to the thousands of Pagan Gods in history?
They might not be worshipped now, in year 2007 nor remembered.
But do you dare say they’ve never existed at all?
You might not know this, but there is a ancient “nordic bible” originated from Denmark called the Prose Edda which also narrates the the creation of the world and the coming of man and woman and the course of nature. Do we believe what it says? We might not. But do we dare doubt its existence? If you do think twice.
There was never anything wrong with religions ( and that includes Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism and so forth), it’s the believers who are in the wrong. They fight to prove the existence of their Gods, denying others, disrespecting others. It’s the way they preach/teach that offend others, for all religions teach us to be true.I dare not say that there aren’t others who praise their Gods, but seriously,is there space for others in the world of Christianity?
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 1:08 am
ah… i see ur thinking along the lines of “who gives the Christians the rite to say they’re the only correct religion rite?”
i dun blame u, i empathize actually..cuz sometimes i do feel that the way the Christian msg is preached wrong. but lets ans ur questions 1st…
yes we can call Jesus a man, He’s man but also God, there’s no offence in that. and jus to make it clear.. the universe and everything was created in 6 days, not the galaxy… 7 days is usually referred but on the 7th day it was given as a day as rest, no creation was done cuz it was completed already. and i believe its a figurative 6 days.
yes the bible has its source.. u mention historical and mythological… but where’s spiritual? the bible makes it known that God was the main author who used ppl to write the bible, He was the divine inspiration for the books written. the gospel of luke makes it known that its a mixture of both, that he used eye witnesses to help write his gospel, but the fact that it is divine should be readily known.
from the way ur typing, ur talking as tho u believe every religion is true. now i dun deny at all every religion has at least “some” aspects of truth but not the whole truth. only Christianity provides that, now do i sound like someone u’ve met b4? i dun blame u, i understand that it sounds offensive, but if u consider every religion to be true (jus like baha’ism) ur contradicting urself. my religion says that there’s only one God! 1 God in 3 Persons, the form of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all different manifestation of Him. its not that ppl preach that He’s the only Almighty diety, but my religion (the bible specifically) says so. u mentione dearlier u believed in the bible, well, if thats the case then u should only believe in the Christian God like that then. the bible says that there’s only one God, and gives many examples of y other gods are all false. jus cuz we preach it doesnt mean u should hold it against us, my religion explicitly states that, by saying ur offended by wat we preach, ur saying ur offended of my religion.
u see, other religions (most, i’m jus generalizing, dun take offence) require u to do good works to enter their “heaven”, take buddhism, 18 lvls of hell u must go thru and if u lead a good life, then u’ll enter nirvana, which is basically a nothingness, a place where ur free from all desires, now if i read correctly when i was a buddhist last time, his disciples never prayed to him, but believed that they should spread his msg.. so of buddhism is more of nontheistic. no god at all, after all, nirvana is nthness, so that means buddha was free from eveyrthing, and entered into nth, so who’s the high and mighty power who brings ppl into either nirvana or reincarnates. no offence to buddhists. but who controls karma? i mean karma says that if u do bad, it’ll be returned to u, but if u do good, then good things will happen to u. if thats the case, y do bad things happen to good ppl? the bible says that bad things happen to good ppl.. in fact, in 2 books in the bible, nearly the entire books talk about good ppl suffering and related content.
if u are saying that there’s more than one god in existenec, then basically ur calling my God a liar. and my religion also states that my God NEVER lies, but u saying that other gods exist, then ur also saying my God lies all the time, since He created the world, and even till now.
and yes i can daresay zues, isis, venus and all greek gods never existed b4. if they were still existing, i think they’d make themselves quite well known. the scriptures that mention them are heavily contradicted, and unlike te bible, there’s no explanation for these contradictions. the texts that mention them state that they came down to earth very often and showed themselves all the time. zues is well known for flirting with human gals and even making babies with them -.-, thats how hercules was born. well, i’d expect some more hercules related ppl, not to mention an appearance from the greek gods like that. but my God says (not directly) that they’ve never existed outrite. i deny the existence of these gods becuz my God says so, and so does my religion, and every believer of my religion for that matter.
sure, there are many “sacred” texts out there.. the buddhist sutras, which i derived to explain his followers spreading of his teachings. then there’s also my bible, then theres also the Qu’ran or Qur’an, sorry i dunno where the apostrophe goes =/, i dun doubt their existence, but as a believer in Christianity, i only believe that my bible states the truth, that while nething else written may have some agreeable topics, like loving and treating others good, but when sth outrite says sth contrary to my religion, like the existence of other gods, or that Jesus was a prophet and worshipped Allah (again, no offence to muslims, jus an example) then as a true believer of my religion, i’m against it, cuz my God says so, and my God makes it known many times that there’s no other gods and that He never lies. how then, can i be a hypocrite and believe other religions or that there’s other gods?
my bible gives many examples of ppl preaching, and other Christians follow that example. yea i understand some Christians preach offensively, and i understand that, its hard to preach that ur the only rite one without sounding offensive, but hey, thats y my religion talks so much about love, and love is one way we can show others Jesus in us. the bible states so also, Jesus saved ppl thru love, and i folow that example, so does my church. others may not, and i’m sorry for that, but i cant help it. the crusades were an example of how bad Christians can be when they arent focusing on the way Jesus taught us to be.
yes in this world there’s room for Christianity. in fact, this world owes a lot of good to Jesus of Nazareth, and that should be well known. cuz of the true believers of Christianity, not including the hypocrites who spoil the Christian image, there’s so many charities who are funded by Christians, many of the top universities were originally gospel-centred. i’m not saying other religions dun contribute, but while they state that we should work hard and do good, few examples are given. but Jesus showed ALOT of examples, in the bible of His acts of servanthood and good works. He showed an example to the world, which ppl follow till this day. so yes, there’s space for Christianity today, in fact, in the past, present and future there will stil be a need for it. and if Christianity died off, according to my religion, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed miraculously, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them, and this world would degrade morally. am i sounding too proud? this is jus wat my religion says.
rmb, my God never lies, He always tells the truth, and the truth is that there’s no other gods, and that Christianity is very relevant, for all ages. thats wat my religion believes.. so if u take all religions to be true.. and Christianity is a religion.. that means u should be accepting this as fact as well.
kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Okay, I’am back into the fray after a long, long break. Let’s roll.
Fine, lets talk about evolution, since it’s so hot.
Firstly, lets look at it from another way. Instead of aethists like me trying to prove evolution to you, why not you try to disprove it instead?
We state that EVERY living creature must have a parent, or rather, come from another of it’s species. From a normal person’s standpoint, it is perfectly reasonable to believe so. That is how life is created now. So, by telling us that life, suddenly appeared out of nowhere, is a pretty dubious idea that we’d have to reject unless there is someway to prove it.
When you dig into earth, you will find fossil remains. As everyone knows, the older the fossil is, the deeper underground it is found. But for the uninitiated, the explanation is as follows. Let’s say an animal dies, and lays on the floor. The elements will batter against it, wind, rain, mud, sand, and will eventually bury the said corpse. Hence, as time goes by, the corpse gets buried deeper and deeper. Now explain this. Why is it, that in the deepest of the earth archaeologists have dug, we only find fossil remains of plants, followed by dinosaurs, followed by old mammals such as saber tooth tigers and woolly mammoths, followed by present day animals, AND HUMANS? It simply goes to prove that humans have only existed for awhile, there is no archaeological evidence, and since we HAVE to come from somewhere, one would look at the closest thing to us, the monkeys. That is of course, if you are type A who believes that life is created out of nothingness. Psycho, you yourself said that excavations CAN be trusted because you quoted, “many fanciful things in the bible have been proven in archeology”. So taking that stand point, explain why this phenomenon is true.
If we want to argue about the bible(yes I’m going specific here) in the scientific way, lets do this properly. Let’s just read Genesis shall we?
YS, as I understand, you are a science student? Then let me ask a simple question, how do plants feed? Something we all learnt in primary school, photosynthesis! A process in which plants produce food, by mixing water, carbon dioxide and sunlight. Dare I be mistaken…? (Checks books) Yes I am right! Hmm, then why, why can’t I understand the reason why God created plants and all on the THIRD day, and only created the two greater lights, the sun and the moon on the FOURTH? Following your statement, “while some ppl disagree, i believe that the 6 days is figurative, as in 1 day in the genesis account is actually a very broad period of time. and so 6 days of creation equals to 6 times that very large period referred to as a “day”. alot of things in the bible are portrayed figuratively…” Hmm. Maybe the plants invented a way to feed without sunlight for a few thousand years.
Secondly, the moon is a lesser light? Meaning it produces light? Oh right, my primary school textbooks are wrong! >.< The moon doesnt reflect light like I thought it would. Yeap, and thus the moon is always round. I stand corrected!
Thirdly, STILL in Genesis, “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.” Psycho, making statements like you did can get people KILLED! “rmb, my God never lies, He always tells the truth, and the truth is that there’s no other gods, and that Christianity is very relevant..” Ok, say you teach that to a kid, an innocent 10 year old, who believes what you told him, and read s the bible. So one fine day, Tom *i like the name tom* walks into the forest and says “HEY! God said all fruits are meat! And since he NEVER lies….” then proceeds to eat the entire poisonous fruit (Comeon now, DON’T tell me there are NO poisonous fruits, and don’t give me evolution theory, you dont believe in it remember?) and promptly dies. TADUH.
Psycho, don’t make strong statements like that, you can hurt other people. “if u are saying that there’s more than one god in existence, then basically ur calling my God a liar.” as quoted by you. Think of it from a Muslim’s point of view. By stating that, YOU are declaring that their god is liar too. We don’t want a a 2nd Crusade again now, do we. Then again….”Looks at U.S.A and President Bush.”
My friends that was the first Chapter of Genesis. God knows what I find in the next.
Psycho, your phrase “and yes i can daresay zues, isis, venus and all greek gods never existed b4. if they were still existing, i think they’d make themselves quite well known. the scriptures that mention them are heavily contradicted,” is harsh indeed. History has written that the greeks worshipped these gods. Think of it this way, had Jesus not been born, had the Greek Nations not be defeated and reduced from its might at it’s peak, would YOU be a Christian now? For all you know, we may have to worship the Hellenic gods. History proves that these gods, were worshiped by people before. Who are you to say that these are just fairy tales that can be safely discarded? History was changed by these “Gods”, not unlike what Christianity has done. And even though we don’t see them, we don’t see God either. It makes your point moot.
“and if Christianity died off, according to my religion, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed miraculously, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them, and this world would degrade morally. am i sounding too proud?” Yes, that sounds pretty proud. let’s see, what has Christianity done for the world as a whole…hmm. Maybe you could tell me more. On the other hand, WHAT has science done for the world? EVERYTHING. Pretty please, could I rephrase that for you? “and if Science died off, according to my theory, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed by advances in the medical field, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them by trained psychologist*Read Woodbridge* , and this world would degrade morally due to the lack of general intelligence. am i sounding too proud? this is jus wat i think for science lor.”
“jus as ys said, wat u havent seen doesnt mean its not true. u havent seen a demon possessed person? i had 3 of them cast outta me last yr. God is invisible, so we cant see Him, and u may have never seen God and His wonders, but i saw a woman born blind, with no pupils.. she was prayed for, and during the prayer for healing, her pupils developed.. black pupils started to form out of nowhere. she’d been blind since birth, but could see at the old old age of 70. my fren’s ex gf had cancer.. we prayed for her and she was healed of her cancer. u may not see them, but i’m an eyewitness of these things.” Wow! That is impressive! Now then, tell God to destroy cancer, tell god to destroy HIV, tell god to rid the world of disabilities. Why? OMGOSH, thats right. We don’t believe in God, why should HE heal us? I agree with you there….but then again. IF he could remove it, WHY did he rob the old lady of her sight in the FIRST PLACE? Ohhh, that girl has cancer? God can remove it? Then why did he put it in her in the first place? It just doesnt make sense, and about your old lady GROWING pupils out of nothing, is nothing short of a world wonder, have you contacted Guinness World Records for the “Fastest Eye Grown” record? Unless you show me scientific proof that this really happened, please, do not just shoot off from your mouth. I could also say, “hey you know, this guy, his arms grew back up again after being chopped off!” Evolution of mutant genes at it’s best now, is that so hard to believe after what you’ve told me?
- Kid
Kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:14 am
I’m not trying to be unfriendly here, it’s simply because the atmosphere has been warmed up, and I’m ready to debate for real now. En Garde!
bondevia said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:21 am
Psycho, your statements are very bold and cannot be justified. You are basing your statements on what you have been told. Not everything you say can be proven.
And I agree with Kid, the eyeballs growing thing. No pun intended here. That doesn’t sound real to me. And the 3 demons, I’ve said before the human mind is pretty complex. UNLESS you have obtain supernatural powers and you have evidence to prove it, I will believe you. Otherwise, it’s just another unjustifiable statement made.
Just like a sci-fi story.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
alrite kid, ur back.. long time no see =/
i cant disprove evolution to u, and neither can u prove it, we’d need time as a witness, and none of us have millions of yrs to wait around.. and i did try to disprove evolution to a certain extent, i’ve made my point known in the comments above. can i outrite say that evolution doesnt exist? no, but with the various sources of evidence for and against evolution and creationism, and wat i believe, obviously i make my stand on it, u cant prove evolution, and i’ve given my reasons mentioned above of y i dun take evolution as fact, its still a theory, altho widely accepted among the many ppl as fact.. i may not disprove it, but neither can u prove it, and i’ll admit, neither can i prove creationism outrite, but u cant disprove it outrite either. wat we dunno doesnt mean it hasnt happened. so i’m not gonna do sth i cant do-disprove evolution, but neither can u prove it outrite
as for the fossils, the age of homosapiens is constantly being pushed back all the time, and yea they havent found the human remains from all the way back, but slowly its going back further and further. i’m not gonna assume that it’ll be pushed back all the way till the start of time, but ppl have been saying that humans existed recently, and the bible mentions that we were the final created things on earth.. there’s agreement in that, who’s to say that us coming late in excavations equates us coming last in the genesis account? but i can see ur agreeing with the fact that excavations are trusted, so then, the age where humans came is earlier than neone expected, who’s to say that we wun find older ones and older ones?
and God provides life for everything, He breathed life into adam, and who said He couldnt sustain the plants b4 he let them grow and mature themselves? its made clear that God is the sustainer of every living thing, and being God, that means u can do nething, and if u can do nething, that means u can bend the laws of nature u created. i cant prove it, but hey i am a believer of my religion, so i’ll believe that too, for a God who can do nething, He can sustain things supernaturally.
being a lesser light it doesnt mean that it produces light, the bible doesnt say it produces light. it jus says its a lesser light, how’s that equate to producing light? it reflects light and so is a lesser light. u cant say outrite that its a producer of light, and neither does the bible.
in the fall of man when adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit, their sin caused ALL of creation to be affected. plants and animals alike. a few parts of the bible mention how things were like b4 in the garden of eden. lions not eating other animals, babies playing around snakes with no harm and so and so. plants were affected too, and tho i wun say outrite that they caused some fruits to be poisonous cuz i cant prove it, bt the fall of man caused animals to eat other animals.. so who says fruits cant become poisonous cuz of man’s fall? God told them about giving them all fruits and stuff b4 adam fell.
yea, thats y ppl take offence at that. i’m not saying that their god is a liar, my religion itself is saying that. and i’ve got reasons for believing my religion, so i’d take that as fact also. every religion contradicts heavily with each other, but i’ve got plenty of evidence to show that its true, so i’ll believe it, and wat it says too. so yea, cuz i believe in my religion, i’ll be believing that (no offence to muslims) their god is a liar, but only becuz my religion says so, not cuz i’m offending their religion in particular.
God mentions several times that He’s in control of history, no matter wat may happen. He let israel be wiped off the map and even exiled, but that in turn, showed how much they had gone from their original purpose in God. thru sth bad, God ultimately led it to good. so in the case of the greeks falling, He intended it for it to happen, so that we could worship Jesus. and He sent Jesus to redeem us, and He knew how he was to do it also. Jesus was born cuz God sent Him. the greeks fell and thus the worship of their gods fell, cuz God intended it. God has always made a way to let Himself be known, thru various methods, and so far, its always brought believers. but i dun see that in the greco-roman religions. and these “fairy tales” if true, wouldnt be contradicting each other, cuz that shows that their gods arent in control, and cuz my God says that they dun exist, yea, i believe that too. the greek gods always showed themselves, tho they resided in mount olympus, bt they came down to earth all the time. but no one has seen them netime now. God doesnt show Himself since the beginning till now.
i jus gave examples of wat Christianity has done for the world in my previous post, i suppose u need more examples? morality, democracy, the basic laws of most free countries today (the 10 comandments) and servanthood and love in many ways not taught in other religions. spriitually and morally, the world owes Christianity alot.
and according to ur theory, if science died off that wouldnt mean ppl wouldnt exist, according to wat u believe (evolution i assume) then wat would the de-advent of science stop the evolution of humans? and b4 general intelligence, the 1st Christians and ppl of God were already moral ppl. there was barely ne science that time yet ppl lived morally. so without science, ppl would exist nonetheless from God or evolution in ur stance, and ppl would live morally also. that proves ur point moot.
i mentioned b4 how God uses bad situtations to turn out a good outcome. many verses in the bible also state that belief. one part in the bible talks about a man born blind so that a miracle would be done with him and have ppl believing in Jesus. who says this example cant be used for all the sicknesses in the world and HIV? if u control time and know wats gonna happen, and u let some ppl suffer for a greater good, who r u to say that God isnt doing that with the ppl all over the world? and if ppl sin and have these diseases, its their own fault, they caused it and God has no obligations to heal them is He doesnt see fit. even every single prayer isnt answered all the time, cuz God has His reasons, and when u know everything that will happen and wat will turn out, then those are darn good reasons.
obviously i cant prove it to u, and jus typing, even more so… but here i am trying to at least show my reasons for believing my religion. if i were to lie to other ppl yet protray a Christian image, i would be a hypocrite, and the bible mentions a lot of stuff about being a hypocrite. i’m here defending my religion honestly, y should i go to pure lying to prove more of wat i believe? i’d be a hypocrite like that. and being a believer, then that means i’m well aware i’ll be punished yet dun care but bring in ppl to believe sth false. u dunno me, but i know (and God for that matter) that i dun sink so low, not to mention if i wasnt totally believing in my religion, y would i defend it?
i can show no proof of the lady being healed. i gave an example in the bible of a man made blind so that a miracle could be done, and that applies to the old lady who got her eyesight as well. and i’m not jus shooting off my mouth, i was an eyewitness of those 2 events, and many more. u can jus say that that guy’s arms got chopped of and grew back, but u were obviously not a witness. i was… its not natural, its not mutant genes, so its supernatural, especially when she was being prayed for.
and bondevia, its bold, yes, but hey, as a true proclaimer of my religion, its wat i believe and am told to preach. i am not basing every single statement on wat i’ve been told. there’s documented facts in archaeology, there’s documented facts on every single thing i’ve mentioned. and those theological, preachy stuff yes, are based on wat i’ve been told, but are from the bible to begin with, and me reading my bible compared to wat i’ve been told are in totally diff leagues. i can attest that wat i’ve been taught can be referred to in the bible, so we all take it from the source, with common sense and general knowledge, i see no problems with wat i’ve been “told” as u put it.
and i admit that not everything i say can be proven, but neither can u. i cannot prove the miracles… thats y they’re miracles to begin with. i’m an eyewitness, how can i explain it but thru Christ? we pray to the Christian God for healing, we’re all Christians and pupils develop in front of my own eyes, is it logical? well if u believe in religion, yes it is. u dunno me, so i’d have problems showing u, and not everything is answered when u want it, cuz God has His reasons, and i’ll respect that. u can take it as an unjustifiable statement, cuz u cant attest that i’m honest and jus preaching as my religion says so, but i’ve got a clear conscience, and i know that i’ not lying, being an eyewitness especially, and being a true proclaimer and true believer wat my religion.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
*teaches… yea, thats the last word i forgot to type.
Kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
“and i admit that not everything i say can be proven, but neither can u.”
Point taken, you cannot convince me to take up the belief of Christianity, and I cannot convince you that your views of your religion is flawed. As a personal rant, I’d add this. You can never out debate a Christian. Why so? For all answers, God works in his mysterious ways, Amen. From my point of view, my facts have to proven, justified and made real.
Following that, *who am I to judge you?*. I was simply showing what happens when someone gives you a prejudiced attitude because you aren’t a Christian. You want proof? How about a forceful breakup of me and my ex girlfriend of 3 years, simply because I wasn’t “SPIRITUAL” enough, and that our “relationship” wasn’t based around a holy purpose. When a Christian friend looks at me “sinning”, listening to heavy metal music, cussing and swearing, watching pornography(now now, don’t tell me you don’t.), ogling at pretty girls, indulging in alcohol and telling me, “Nick, repent, go to church and be saved…or else you’d end up in hell.” Dude, I’am an aethist. I’ll see you after death, laughing as I spent my life enjoyably, conforming only to rules that make my life happy.
“Do not do to others what you do not want others to do unto you.”
You don’t judge me by my religion, and don’t look down on me just because I ain’t a religious person. Hell, you could worship a rock for all you want, as long as you don’t throw it at me. All that “I am holier then thou attitude” is what makes people like me dislike religion. It’s not even a matter of choice in some places. Let’s say, this young kid is brought to church by his parents. He will grow up in God’s grace, and of course, be a Christian. Did he have a choice? What is so different about politics and religion? Doesn’t everyone have freedom to choose what they want to do?
“the world owes Christianity alot.”
That’s the mindset that Christians have that makes this world have less space for this religion. It’s all high and mighty for you guys, and everything else -people included- are merely mortals who are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell. When God asked Saul to destroy the Amalekites, he rejected Saul later because the latter failed to DESTROY EVERY SINGLE LIVING SOUL and instead spared the cows and sheep to be sacrificed in the name of the lord. Are you guys that much better then slaughterers? So if God commanded now that every Christian should wage a holy war and destroy EVERYONE who isn’t a Christian, would you turn on your parents, your friends, your relatives for their refusal to join your religion? That makes a scary world, won’t it? I tremble at the thought of such a massacre.
Nickeo said,
on March 25th, 2007 at 5:25 am
I’ll just skip the evolution part. I’m not really that good in Bio ever since I took enginnering. Like Pyscho has said, yes, I may believe in many things, even the existence of many divine beings. Thus, I can even believe that evolution is where all life began, though it contradicted with my believes that there is a highpower who governs man.
But there doesn’t mean I’m not a stout believer of my own religion, it’s just that in my religion (okay put it this way, I’m Taoist), I was taught to believe, respect, love and accept what is taught to me, but not indulge in it.
Why do I say this, because according to the debate above, none of you are willing to give in to one another. Since none of you can prove completely your own viewpoints, why can’t there be benifit of doubt? You can stand firm on your points, but that doesn’t mean that the other party is completely wrong or being nonsensical.
to Kid:
Just a thought.If evolution was the real engine that started life, did the chicken or the egg come first? This might sound like a cliche, but let’s say the egg came first, who laid the egg? If you said it came from evolution, which I gather would have probably evolved from a huge ostrich egg, where did the ostrich evolve from? Okay you might say it came from dinosaurs, since birds are highly akin to dinosaurs, especially pterodactyls, then where did dinosaurs evolve from? All right if we go furthur backwards, we have to go into the ocean, coz according to the theory, all life form started from water, am I right? If i’m right then it means that the first land dinosaurs crawled out from the ocean, and so dinosaurs started evolution in the ocean, from where?
If we go real far back in time, we’ll get really microscopic, coz the earlist forms, are just microorganisms, such as planktons and zooplanktons. Okay since dinosaur wasn’t a “plant”, we assume it came from an “animal” microorganism, and so we have the ameoba as an example.
Now here’s what I mean, if eggs came from evolution, and not the hand of God( and I mean everybody’s god, not specifically the Christian God), where the heck did it evolve from. For all I know, an ameoba, which is an animal cell, DOESN’T lay eggs to reproduce. It goes through splitting. Hence, if we evolved from animals which in turn evolved from egg-laying prehistoric animals which, like I said, came from a tiny microorganism in the ocean, which DOESN’T lay eggs, where the heck did we come from if not from some unknown power?
Kindly explain?
to Phyco:
Now what you said wasn’t just harsh, it was VERY harsh. How can you call the Islamic God a Liar?
If you are to put it this way, that your god decrees that every other god is liar and that everything he say is true, then can I in turn say that My god came first, and he tells me that YOUR god is a Liar?
Who says your God is the only true God? How can you that the bible is the ONLY truth while others are fake just because the bible said they are? Can I in turn say that my sutras comment that what you belive is just a myth, and that includes the bible? (of course, this is just an examplary statement, the sutras DOESN’T say that).When I said I belive in what the bible says I mean that I do not doubt the existence of other possible belives in the world, and I accept them, wholeheartedly, but that doesn’t mean I have to worship them. Perhaps it’s what my religion taught me: belive, accept, but not indulge.
Now perhaps if you had understood more bout ‘nirvana’ and ‘karma’ when you were a buddhist, you would have known that nirvana isn’t attained in just one lifetime. According to buddhism karva revloves in a cycle of lifetime. It means that what you do in this lifetime may be brought forth into your next life, and even the life after your next life. It doesn’t just end in one life cycle. So karma is a just a collective term for what had accumulated in many lifetimes. If something bad happens to you it doesn’t mean that you have done bad, it simply means that in your karma the “bad stuff” is more than the “good essence”, and now you’re going through the bad ones in this cycle of your life, which was probably brought down from your previous life. You said your GOD has HIS reasons for everything, well, I firmly belive that the Buddha also has his reason for creating karma. Don’t doubt that.
Now there’s something I’m wondering too. We know that cristianity only belives in one GOD, whether he’s any of the three forms it doesn’t matter. Okay that means that Christians deny all forms of witchcraft/wizardry/pagan/hocos-pocus/super powers/relics of power and so forth. Am I right? (for god’s sake some christians dun even let their kids read harry potter, no offence, but I think it’s ridiculous to do that)
Okay If I’m right, explain to me bout this Christian Hero, Charlemagne.
In case you don’t know whose Charlemagne, he was the man who craeted the Holy Roman Empire from the ruins of the ancient Roman empire, Rome and Byzantium.
Charlemagne was acknowleged as the “Defender of the Christian Faith”. In fact, it was he who destroyed the believers of Greek, Egytians, and Nordic Gods. He was the one that brutally suppressed all non-Christian worship. he destroyed and pulled down heathen temples and burned sacred groves of the pagan religion. All who worshiped Odin or Zeus were converted or put to sword. Similarly to the south of Spain, he stopped the advance of Sarecens. He turned back the tide of Islam and put the worshippers of the prophet Mohammed to the sword.
Now, he’s a stout believer of Christ, isn’t he? And now you know where did all the Greek followers have gone. Dead, under his sword. YOu can check the history, I’m not kidding you.
Now here’s what bothering me, If Charlemagne was such a Christian hero, shouldn’t he be loved by God? But why was it, that at the end of his victory over half the world, was he seduced and entralled by the power of a Pagan ring? Okay after his victory, Charlemagne got married. On the say of his wedding he received a gift, a ring in fact. The ring was said to be cursed with such a power that whoever’s wearing it would get Charlemagne’s undying love. Now i’m just gonna skip all the mythical part, but if the Christians have such strong faith in their god, why could such a thing have happened to them? Shouldnt a Christian only believe in God in his heart and not on some ring, which is said to be very pagan? How is it that they could be easily seduced by other belives? If YOUR God is always there, why didn’t HE stop this and save his believer, especially if he’s such a strong defender of Christ?
Lol, I hope what I said didn’t bore you guys, it’s quite long actually. But these are just some of my viewpoints, and doubts, and I hope that everybody’s cool with it, no hard feelings eh?
Nick said,
on March 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Was he eating a sandwich while he narrated that video? Those lip smacking noises were really obnoxious
bondevia said,
on March 26th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
haha, I agree. that guy speaks funny. I think he is nervous, and probably salivating. hahaha
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 27th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
alrite.. i’m back, sorry for the late comment, my internet was cut… nehoo, a reply 1st to kid
agreed, that we cannot convince each other of our own beliefs. but God has His ways for everything. but it isnt jus based cuz of wat i’ve been taught, but for me the experiences i’ve gone thru, the miracles i’ve seen and much historical evidence to back up the credibility of wat i believe in all add up to justify y i believe my religion. i can respect ur views, i was a buddhist b4, and later an atheist, and later agnostic… so at least i can appreciate ur views more than those close-minded Christians u and nickeo have met b4, and face it, i’ve met plenty too. i dun believe in my religion blindly, but there’s overwhelming proof that helps me to ground my beliefs. of course there’s some evidence against Christianity, but in my point of view its not enuff to disprove my religion. obviously i’m biased, but even as an atheist i was a little concerned about how much proof Christianity had to back itself up.. which led to me being agnostic, instead of outrite rejecting religions.
u mentioned about giving a prejudiced attitude cuz u arent a Christian. well unless i’m totally mistaken, or ur not referring to me but other Christians, i did not talk about ur morality. i merely gave reasons for wat i believed in but never questioned ur morality, whether ur moral, immoral or amoral doesnt change the fact that u are an atheist. the fact that ur ex had stayed with u for 3 yrs, i think she was at least trying to lead u into some spirituality, cuz the bible says that we shouldnt be yoked with unbelievers… y? well, taking both of u as an example, considering how different ur belief systems are, it would lead to numerous conflicts, and that she’s trying to stop sinning while u dun care (i’m jus assuming, no hard feelings on this yea?) about sinning and stuff when wat she believes is to stop sinning, it will also lead to conflicts, which ultimately end up on the basis of ur religion. i’m jus assuming that she “gave up” trying to spiritualize u and so broke up cuz she was doing sth against wat the bible mentioned to begin with. on a side note.. listening to heavy metal isnt sinning.. i’m a major fan of black metal and death metal, but as long as i dun embrace those values or enjoy those that actually curse my God (and plenty do) its alrite, everyone’s got their own tastes.. sinning is about actions and thots, and i dun embrace those thots that go against my religion, i’m jus enjoying music, and the beats and those usually messed up lyrics (as long as they dun insult my God), and yes i dun watch pornography, b4 i was a Christian i did watch, but as i’m living a life out for Christ, if i’m watching it wouldnt that lead me to being a hypocrite? i’m a stout believer of my faith, and the fact i’m debating with u already shows i uphold my religion truly. and my religion rejects sexual perversions of all kind, and so i reject porn as well, i can outrite say that i dun watch porn at all, and i havent seen it in yrs… is it that hard to believe that a professing person of his faith would undermine some aspects of his religion but uphold other parts? jus cuz almost every guy who’s got net access has watched porn doesnt mean they continue to do so when their beliefs are changeed. ogling at pretty gals is ok, as long as there’s no lust involved, its jus eye candy, and face it, pretty gals will almost guarantee a double look, but thats cuz their pretty. like a really beautiful artwork which makes u look again, the same can be said for pretty gals. but if there’s lust or ur trying to take a peek at sth, then thats when its sinning. indulging in alcohol, the bible doesnt say outrite its a sin, but gives plenty of reminders its not fitting for us and is sth we clearly shouldnt do as it clouds our judgement. now while u go around sinning and yea no offence, but simply, yes u r on ur way to hell. cuz in heaven there’ll be values that all of us share, but in hell, its for ppl who dun care or reject those values, and from wat u’ve said, it seems like u dun care also. lets jus imagine that God shows Himself to u, thru some miracles or watever. sth supernatural and u know its God Himself. so now that u know God is real, will u make an effort to change ur lifestyle? from wat i read, it seems as u dun care, and that u’ll live ur way the way u want to. so then u’ll go to hell, which is the only place left since u’ll not want to embrace those values we’ll have in heaven. God gives us a choice, and wat i’ve assumed above is that ur choice will be to ignore those values in heaven.
and whoa whoa.. relax, i never looked down on u.. i mentioned above that i never questioned ur morality to begin with. i never look down on neone, jus cuz my religion says unbelievers are spiritually dead does NOT mean i look down on u. and i never mentioned nething in my previous comments to presume that. and when u’ve got the truth and try to spread it, i’ll admit, if its not girded with love (which the bible clearly tells us to have when reaching out) it can sound as tho ur superior, living holy lives while looking down on those who dun believe. have i met these ppl? yes, and even when we share the same religion it still turns me off cuz of how they live. i’ve got my own convictions for believing and i try not to bother with those kinda ppl. and everyone has a choice when it comes to believing.. when u grow up u’ll encounter a lot of ppl who dun share ur views, and that will make u think about whether u truly still hold ur religion as truth, take me and u as an example. cuz i’m a frequent debater i’ve heard urs and bondevia’s views much more times than u’d think. so its nth new to me, but when i 1st encountered these views, it obviously challenged my beliefs and so i sought to find out more about my own religion and found out thru extra-biblical facts plus my own experiences in life that i have good reason to believe in my religion. everyone’s got a choice, and if u really wanna have a better reason for believing in ur own religion than jus cuz u grew up in a family that believed, u’ll naturally want to find out more to back up ur beliefs, and thru these “searches” u’ll encounter more of other ppls beliefs too, either those that support urs or are against urs… these will leave an impression and in the end, we all have the choice to accept wat we believe or reject it. so dun go around saying we dun have choice, cuz in the long run, and as we grow up, we all do. plenty of my frens have left the Christian faith.. many more have joined the Christian faith.. they all had a choice.
and he fact is that the world owes Christianity alot. its a plain fact.. it may seem arrogant, but u cant deny how much good this religion has done. does it sound proud? it does, and i can understand y, but its a fact. i’m not denying that other religions and many atheists have done a lot in which the world owes them too. who’s saying that they’re being proud? everyone’s saying that proclaiming this is proud for Christians but not believers of other religions. and like i mentioned above, i never questioned ur or neone elses morality for that matter. quit assuming that jus cuz i’ve saved i’m oh-so-higher than u. i’m saved, and my faith tells me to profess it to save others to, to love them, to fellowship with them. it doesnt say that we’re high and mighty above every person who’s not saved. u may be smarter than me, u may have an easier life than me, u may have more money than me, u may live in a higher standard place than me. but becuz of wat i believe does that make me higher above u? and lets assume that u r higher in those aspects i mentioned above.. does that mean ur higher above me? i dun think so… so dun assume that we’re high and mighty above u, we’re told to be humble and to love. merely proclaiming facts doesnt mean that we’re saying we’re above u.
and if u’ve read more on wat saul did, u can see he failed on many accounts. God asked saul to destroy every living soul of the amalekites cuz they were despicable to God. does He still love them? yes, but if God allowed the amalekites to live, they’d go on trying to wipe off the israelites from existence, which would then never lead to the birth of Jesus. the culture of the amalekites was evil in God’s eyes, and the amalekites are related to the israelites.. they’re committing genocide and they were well known to attack israel from behind, killing off children, elderly and most probably woman as well. quite cowardly, and they continued to try to kill the israelites over many generations. God decided to deal with them once and for all, and used saul to do it, saul failed. he left the cows and sheep to be sacrificed, i’m thinking that ur assuming y din God appreciate the fact the saul left the animals behind to be sacrificed to Him rite? well, God said the amalekites were an abomination and their cattle and livestock, raised in an abominable culture would have to be destroyed as well. and for the issue of sacrificing them, God alrady told saul to destroy every single thing of the amalekites, He said that the amalekites were an abomination. saul kept the livestock to sacrifice to God, thats as good as steaing and giving it to God. many parts of the bible mention that God desires sacrifice, and even david mentioned that he would never sacrifice to God if it cost him nth. God wanted no part of the amalekites and saul had the cheek to try that. he din sacrifice at all, but merely looted the amalekites to give to God. in our modern context, thats as bad as stealing from a guy and giving it to charity. i think u’d agree that its very low of a person to do that. well considering saul did that not to charity but to God Himself, its quite an offence, esp when u purposely disobey His commands. and yes we are much better than slaughterers, thats in the old testament, we’re in the new testament. in the old testament times living like the way we are now would have completely led ur nation being killed off, and so God played by the rules of humans yet in a very humane way. God told the israelites that whenever they were to invade a place, a peace offering must be given 1st, and if that offering was accepted, then no need for an invasion. thats merciful, esp in those times. plus God gave the amalekites a lot of time to repent. from the exodus of israel all the way to david’s time, the amalekites still were attempting genocide, and if God let them live it would have cost the nation of israel their lives and the world’s Savior. so its justified. and if God for some reason told us that we’d have to wage a holy war and kill off everyone we knew and loved becuz they dun wanna acknowledge God then we would. i mean who r we to disobey God? but of course that will never happen, God tells us to spread His gospel thru love and grace and gives countless verses against violence. God would never tell us to wage a “holy war” for no reason. and the fact that God will never say that makes ur point moot. if there was no world war II s’pore and most of asia would be under japan and europe would be under germany’s rule. the allied powers waged war cuz it was for a good and justified purpose, and same goes with the case of a holy war if God should ever tell us that. but we are told to stop violence and spread the gospel thru love and peace. so if we are true followers of our religion, then it would never lead to a holy war to begin with.
and replying to nickeo…
i never claimed bondevia or kid were nonsensical. in fact they did give true and good points, but thru wat i know and experienced, i dun take the same views as them. in debate above we did give points of y we believed in our respective belief. there’s bits and pieces of truth in wat we’ve all said. of course, becuz of my beliefs, i assume wat i’ve said is the truth, but i dun deny the points they gave for not believing had no truth at all, there is evidence to a certain extent, but there is evidence for wat i believe in too. u see, if i were to “give in” then that’d would mean that my religion is false and so have been proclaiming sth that fake. but i’ve experienced supernatural stuff, miracles and have various sources of evidence to back up wat i believe in, so for me i know it to be true, and if sth is saying otherwise, obviously i must have a reason to believe otherwise, and so thats the basis for our debate. u also mention that wat u believe in contradicts ur religion. now when sth contradicts sth, it means the core beliefs of one thing is wrong..so in this case that would mean either evolution is wrong or taoism is wrong, u must have reasons for believing taoism and evolution, but becuz u said it contradicts ur religion, then the core aspects of one side must be wrong. if ur a stout believer of taoism, and u said that it contradicts evolution, then if u r to believe in taoism completely then evolution must be rejected. but u also mention to not indulge in ur religion… fine, but if u believe in some parts of ur religion but not other parts, that means u dun totally believe ur religion. i’m not saying that ur a hypocrite and i apologize if my tone makes it sound like it, but how can u say ur a stout believer of taoism if u dun completely believe in all aspects of it?
and in ur reply to kid about evolution, u’ve added good points of y i dun believe it.. well, moving on…
1st of all, i did not say that the islamic god is a liar. i said becuz of wat i believe and know is true (tho its noticeable u, bondevia and kid dun share my views) and assuming that the islamic god said he never lies, then becuz of my beliefs the islamic god would be a liar. ok, lemme rephrase that then.. becuz of wat i believe, there is only one God, which is the Christian God, and no other gods are liars cuz they do not exist in the 1st place. and my God never “came 1st” to tell me that other gods were liars. the name Jehovah means “I AM who I AM”.. and Yahweh means “He who is” and from wat we read in the bible, it means that my God has always existed, and that He never “came 1st” but was always there. and becuz of my beliefs, no other gods came after Him becuz there were none in the 1st place. and my God never said ne god was a liar, but that none of them exist., lets get that stright alrite?
who says my God is the only true God? Himself… and like i’ve mentioned in the previous comments, i have good reasons for believing my religion, and u’ve got ur own reasons for believing wat u believe in. sure u can say that IF the sutras mentioned that the bible was a myth then u’d have reason to believe it. but do u have proof of wat the sutras say? for me its supernatural healings and miracles and prophecies and so and so that give me this proof. and i’ve given points of y i believe them above. if u had supernatural proof (forgive me, but i doubt it) that the sutras are true then the sutras would be truth, but from wat i experienced and have had happened to me, the bible is truth.
i do know wat karma is about… and i know its attained thru the cycle of reincarnation. but if thats the case, in buddhism, who created the universe? who created karma? buddha himself was alive and died.. and u said that he created karma.. unless i was a much-mistaken buddhist the sutras dun say the buddha created karma.. if he lived as a man then who created nirvana? who controls karma? and if every life is to slowly “burn off” this bad karma u had in previous lives… let me ask, wat were u “burning” off in ur 1st life? if u had no bad karma b4, then wouldnt that mean it would lead u to nirvana straight away? i said my God has His reasons for everything and becuz i believe in that, i must reject that buddha was divine and that karma exists. if not i’m not a true believer of my religion, merely believing in some aspects but not others.
and no ur wrong -.-…Christianity does not deny all forms of magic and witchcraft. in fact if ur a Christian, u must acknowledge these things.. in the bible there’s many places where ppl did magic and stuff.. but makes it clear that its not from God but from demons and satan. so we acknoledge these things as real, but not of God. and the fact that some Christian parents dun let their kids read harry potter is really ridiculous.. its jus paranoia. i’ve got every title of the harry potter books and i’m not an outrite fan, but i do enjoy the series. i’ve got many books of ghost stories, magic, vampires, werewolves, aliens.. and man, many of them are really good books. i can enjoy the series and wat i read, but as long as i do not profess it if its contrary to wat i believe in or attempt the things which the bible says we arent supposed to then its perfectly alrite.
well, its not only charlemagne who’s loved by God jus becuz he’s a Christian. God loves everyone, no matter how bad they turn or how far they stray from Him. now He may despise how bad the ppl have turned and even annihilate them if He sees fit, but He still loves them nonetheless (note, referring to the amalekites), and becuz He loves them and respects them He lets them pick their own path. cuz He respects our decision this is y He still allows satan to cause problems, and lets say kid for example, kid said he wants to live his life the way he wants it, then God will let him, but let him pay the consequences as well.
on the part if him being seduced… now y dun u ask the israelites how they faltered in their faith? God had given them fire, clouds, manna and delivered every city that belonged to israel to them. yet they also faltered in their faith and left God. even solomon, the wisest king fell to the pagan religions and left God. my very good fren, who was once a strong Christian, has witnessed as much as i have, the miracles, the deliverance of spirits and demons and the such and u know, she’s left the Christian faith too… becuz her bf wasnt a Christian and she jus let her faith die off. when ur in power, u can easily lose focus, and charlemagne maybe had it happen to him. my God was always there, but if u want to, u can ignore God, and i assume thats wat charlemagne did.. He was there to constantly remind solomon who helped him to the throne and who gave him wisdom, but solomon never listened. the israelites ignored God and in the end were taken away as slaves of assyria and babylon. becuz charlemagne ignored God, then God let him. God says He’ll always be there and use different ways to connect with ppl… if the wisest king was so unwise to ignore God and forget Him, then it can happen to charlemagne as well. u ever heard of a guy called charles templeton? he was the closest fren of billy graham, a world famous preacher and healer. both studied together and helped in missionary work and both experienced many miracles together. yet charles templeton left the Christian faith, while billy graham went on in faith. ppl have their reasons for leaving the Christian faith, no matter how much they’ve seen and know true it is… and altho God may be there to remind u, to “prod” u to rmb Him, if u continually choose to ignore Him, He’ll respect ur decision. cuz heaven is where we’ll be with God all the time, and if u dun wanna be with Him, then hell’s the only place left to go, where u can ignore Him for all eternity. we will never know the true reason for charlemagne leaving the Christian faith, but i can be sure God was there to remind Him but charlemagne chose to ignore it. sometimes i feel like leaving the Christian faith too, but God always has helped me find my way back. another testament of y i still choose the Christian faith.. whenever i’m down or about to leave the Christian faith, sth supernatural (God) will always help me find my way back. and yea, i’ll admit, i’ll never be able to prove that to u, but hey its real and i know it to be true. so i can assume God did His part for charlemagne, jus as He did for solomon, jus as He did for my fren, and jus as He continually does so for me.
UnveilYourEyes said,
on March 29th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Hi Kid,
Greetings. First and foremost I would like to comment on your intelligence. What I am about to say might not necessarily be in line in what you guys are discussing or debating. But I thought it might be a good one to stimulate your thoughts.
I am confidence to say that all of humanity in one way or another, worships something. That is the very elemental, yet also an incomprehensable fact. I am convinced that all human beings worship, be it education, career, idols, wealth, fame, materialistic stuffs, musical bands, talents, self, friends, politicians, philosophy and the list goes on. It is then, not too much if I ask you to acquiesce with me that the very fundamental of the human nature longs to worship. The etymology of the word worship basically means:- to bow down, revere, fall down, stoop, crouch, adore, honor, assuming a physical position or an inward attitude or expression. The word worship is applied generally in worshipping God. Hence, if it is so, it would not be foreign or even outrageous to say that we (humanity) are created by God, is it? Maybe you believe in “The Big Bang” and Evolution theory, however if this is so, from ape to human, who then birth to longing in humans to worship?
Similarly, I wouldn’t deny the fact that the word worship can also be accustomed to something or someone, you too may agree with me that deep within our spirit we feel voidness, emptiness that we cannot do anything about, and anything beside worshipping God, doesn’t bring wholeness. I am well aware that you are sick and annoyed with Christians who declares that GOD ALMIGHTY is the only one but I am speaking from the truth (my truth for now at least). I hope at this point in time I still have your peace and I am not too harsh, pardon me if I am. Anyhow, I hope I did bring you closer in the understanding of the Divine Being.
Ciao Tudos,
UnveilYourEyes
Unveil said,
on March 29th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Hi Kid,
Greetings. First and foremost i would like to comment on your intelligence, i might not be that intellectual but bear with me ya? What i am about to say might not necessarily be in line in what you guys are discussing or debating. It might be a good point to stimulate your thoughts thought. At any rate that’s what i think.
i am confidence to say that all of humanity in one way or another, worships something. That is undeniable, yet incomprehensable fact. So i am convinced to say that all human being worship, it might not certainly be God, it could be education, career, idols, wealth, fame, power, materialistic stuffs, musical bands, talents, self, friends, politicians, philosophy and the list goes on. It is then, not over the top if i ask you to acquiesce with me that the very fundamental of the human nature, longs to worship.
The etymology of the word worship basically means:- to bow down, revere, fall down, stoop, crouch, adore, honor, assuming a physical position or an inward attitude or expression. The word worship is applied generally in worshipping God. Hence, if it is so, it would not be foreign or even outrageous to say that we (humanity) are created to worship is it? Created by God to worship Him would then make sense here wouldn’t it? Then you might tell me about the Evolution theory, however if this is so, from ape to human, who then birth the longing to worship in human? Did we evolve to cope with the changing situations and environments and somehow worship is *poof* birth in us? Worship whom then?
Similarly, i wouldn’t deny the fact that the word worship can also be accustomed to something or someone, you too may agree with me that deep within our spirit we feel voidness, emptiness that we cannot do anything about, and anything beside worshipping God, doesn’t bring wholeness. i am aware that you are sick and annoyed with christians who declares that their GOD ALMIGHTY is the only DIVINE ONE, but i am just speaking the Truth. Being mindful that many differs from my point of view, and to avoid any misunderstanding that i am forcing the Bible and God down your throat. i should make myself clear and declare that i am speaking from the Truth, i believe in. Acknoweledge this, that there are indeed innumerable things which are inexplicable and will continue to remain alienated for as long as all humanity lives.
Also i would like to reinforce the point that, being a christian, DOESN’T AT ANY POINT, AT ANY TIME AND AT ALL makes me higher, holier, better or greater than anyone or everybody, infact i’m the lowest. When christian claim that they are stout believers, it doesn’t mean they are proud that they are saved, because salvation is by God’s grace and not by deeds, thus they have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to be proud. You claim that unless we can prove something supernatural to you, you wouldn’t buy it. Sorry to say, we can’t prove it to you, we can tell you of all the testimonies, we can show you where you can experience the supernatural. However, proving will deem impossible because each supernatural encounters differs from the other. Take note, that supernatural will not take place, if you have harden your heart and choose not to believe in it. How can God work something or show you something, if you choose not to want it. God is a gentleman He will not come to where He is not welcome, He will not force into where He is not wanted. Same for freewill, whatever you choose, though it might not be His will, He loves you enough to let you go with what you choose. i hope i haven’t been harsh and quick in bringing my point across, pardon me if i did. Anyhow, i hope it did bring you closer in understanding of the divine being, God.
Ciaos and good day.
Regards,
UnveilYourEyes
† P§¥KØ †™ testifying at 1:16 PM
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I frequently debate with people about my faith. This debate transpired months ago but I thought I'd paste it here so people can see why I choose to believe, and the evidence I have to support my faith.
This is a debate on www.bondevia.com regarding religion. So read on if you have an open mind, to see the points we all make to support our perspective. Should you be close minded or conservative, I recommend you don't read this post. It is completely unedited, and I hope it will help you gain a better perspective of our respective beliefs.
Kudos to the Bondevia crew for an engaging post and enjoyable website.
February 28th, 2007 by Nicholas
Hello there, Kid here. I know, I know, the name Kid is pretty childish, and I am indeed childish, but that doesnt mean what I wish to bring across is nonsense.
Before I continue however, I would like to mention that for those people who are sensitive to religious topics, please click the little X button on the top right hand side of your screen, or click on another link in Bondevia.com.
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I would like to address a more serious side of life, religion. I am personally an atheist, which means, I dont believe in theism, which is the belief in a higher power. I believe that everything is, and can be proven scientifically, given enough time.
I notice there are a great many Singaporeans who are fanatics, for example, in Ah Xiang’s friendster account, there is a ,”I love ____*insert various deities/higherpowers here*!” and he devotes a considerable amount of time, effort and cash into his religion. Ah Xiang also spends a large amount of energy bringing his friends to his places of worship, trying to let them experience the wonders of their religion.
Ah Xiang, here is what Kid has to say. =)
Firstly, do you believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution? For the uninitiated, it is basically the theory that life evolves, through natural selection. We evolve to cope with the changing situations and environments. In that essence, we, humans, used to be Ape-men. If you believe that we evolved from Ape-men, slowly becoming what we are today, then you do NOT believe in religion. If you believe we are made like that, from thin air, or earth, or reincarnated, then you believe in religion. By the way, an interesting sidenote would be that chimpanzees have a DNA likeness of 99% against us. They have learnt to use tools, and are aware of emotions and feelings. In that sense, if they had speech, and had a slightly more intelligent brain, they could easily double up as one of the many human races that walk this planet today.
Secondly, if Religion was true, there would be no dinosaurs. T-rex, Brontosauraus, Raptors. Everything that you see on national geographic about dinosaurs is a BIG FAT LIE. There was no prehistoric age, earth existed only when Man was born. Yeap. These giant monster fossils are fake, all a fake. Science can prove these bone ages, and they date back a few million years. But then again, it would be false right? Hmmm.
Thirdly, there are no aliens out there. Hmm. When you consider the size of the earth, in this video -
Earth is really, really small. There are billions, trillions of other planets out there. And we, Earth, is the one special planet in the billions, that can support life. Go figure.
On to the forth point. Ah Xiang, sex is a holy thing right? It is a special thing that a Higher Being granted to us, for us to sow the seeds of a new generation! Then again, how come, every bloody single creature out there in this world, reproduce by the exact same bloody way? Sperm Meets Egg. Junior Ah Xiang is born! Whoo! Holy-crap.
Fifth! Bear with me now, my last point! Ah Xiang, IF you believe that the galaxy was made within 7 days, and not slowly created through the ages of time. you believe in Religion. =D
On that note, I leave my final comment. There are many many other reasons why Aethism seems possible, and believeable. These are merely my views, and my expression of distaste to people who claim they love their religion, are prepared to die by it, but do not understand it.
With a famous quote, “What is a crusade and jihad? It is basically a battle, to see whose imaginary friend is stronger.”, I rest my case.
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29 Responses to ' About religion and my thoughts. '
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kid said,
on February 28th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Diplodicus, a member of the sauropod family, had no chewing teeth to eat grass with. Saurapods had long necks, so that they might eat leaves from trees, way up, where other herbivores could not reach. So, according to Job, Behemoth is said to eat grass like an ox. Sauropods do not eat grass, they do not even have the teeth to eat grass.
The phrase “He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.” does NOT mean that his tail is like a cedar! It meant that his tail MOVES like a cedar.
Anyhoo, a professional translator Stephen Mitchell published his own translation, and it read “Look: the power in his thighs, the pulsing sinews of his belly. His penis stiffens like a pine; his testicles bulge with vigor.” not exactly the same as it once was huh. =)
kid said,
on February 28th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I do admit however, that religion IS inherently good! There is no fault in that, living a good, religious life. Donating to charity, doing good deeds, not sinning. Commendable, and if everyone is like that, the world would be a better place to live in. There is nothing wrong. I’m just stating my Aethism views and hope people understand what they preach and declare.
Ys said,
on March 13th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Hey Bond
Just some comments. I admire your guts in posting a rather sensitive topic here. But I do find some views rather flawed. just to state a few.
1) There are many religions. Under the main religions, there are many different sub types, the orthodox ones and the unorthodox ones. So to say believing in evolution means one does not believe in religion is not correct. People do believe God acts through evolution.
2) Chimpanzees are 99% like us I agree. But if evolution is really true, why dont we see Chimpanzees turning into human beings now? Hmm..seenms like evolution stops after the first successful evolution from chimpanzees to man.
3) Nope. There could still be dinosaurs in religion.
4) Aliens are creatures which can be seen but we do not see them. A higher being is someone whom we cannot possibly see but we know they are present.
5) I dont really see the sex part though. You mentioned that there are other reasons why Atheism seems possible. But there are also other reasons why religion is plausible. So the argument/viewpoint doesnt stand.
It may be abit presumptous for someone your age to conclude at this point in time. Anything is possible, like what you say, given time. But on a lighter note, I think you are a really cool person. Hope you dont get offended by what I wrote=)
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 12:46 am
Aye, that is me, not Bondevia. Kid.
To counter your points,
1)I stand corrected, there MIGHT be some religions that supports evolution, but to that I do not know of any. So you might be correct in this point, if your “God” that you refer to is not the ones I have in mind.
2) Why don’t we see Chimpanzees evolving into humans now? Because, evolution is an extremely, long process, and changes are seen only after many generations. You do not expect to see new species of intelligent beings after only having lived on earth for so short a time do you? Compared to the Dinosaurs, human existence on Earth is but a trifle of the time they spent. How would we see evolution then, with this only being year 2007? If you do not believe in evolution, then every creature on earth can be classified, because technically, they would be the SAME animals that existed when humankind was given the power of speech and writing. How is it possible then, that there are hundreds of new living creatures being discovered?
3) And nope, there could be no dinosaurs in religion. But there is no proof my friend. Anyone can say this, or that, but proof is needed. Faith, is not an answer. Do not quote, *but the bible says it is so,* because frankly, I don’t believe in the Bible. =)
4) In my point, Aliens are beings that come from another planet, they CAN be seen should we encounter any. I am saying that IF there are aliens, wouldn’t it prove religion to be moot? I am stating that for Earth to be the ONLY planet in the universe, or, if you DO believe in the universe, it is statically impossible for us to be the only living creatures.
5) For the sex part, I was referring to the “love must be centered around a holy purpose thingy, and that it is a sin to have sex with someone who is not your wife, because marriage is a holy union of two souls, binding them as one and so on.* So what’s so special about sex that we have and that animals don’t? We know for a fact that dolphins have fun having sex, so why can’t we? Is it that holy?
Following this quote from you,
“You mentioned that there are other reasons why Atheism seems possible. But there are also other reasons why religion is plausible. So the argument/viewpoint doesn’t stand.”
In every debate, there is a for, and against side. If there were NO reasons at all to make religion plausible, it wouldn’t be an argument/viewpoint anymore, would it. It would be a statement, to tell you that religion is false.
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 12:59 am
I’m sorry if I came down to harsh, its just that I cannot resist a good ol’ fashioned debate. I’m cool with you! =)
bondevia said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 3:37 am
Chill chill… Haha, YS u got the wrong guys. It was Kid who typed that entry:) Not me.
But nonetheless I reallly appreciate your response. It stimulates discussion and I like that.
Hope to hear from you more often:)
Kid said,
on March 14th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
i love discussions, especially against bondevia. Muahahhaah.
Nickeo said,
on March 16th, 2007 at 2:16 am
This post rocks. Although I disagree with Darwin’s theory of evolution coz I believe in my religion, I support without a doubt, that the “religion fanatic” featured in the post above is clearly a pain in the neck.
And I’m cutting straight to the point, most of the time, they’re christians.
Quoted from a msn nickname of one of my contacts:
“Be a man, do the right thing, Be a Christian, do it for Christ”
“You’re not whole, when you do not embrace Christ”
Are they trying to imply that by not being a christian, I’m wrong and not a man? Who gave them the right, whatsoever, to criticize and be skeptical towards the integrity of others?
We know you adore and praise your religion, but please, if you want others to respect yours, respect others first.
Kid said,
on March 18th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Thanks for the input Nickeo, that was the main point I was trying to convey. =)
Ys said,
on March 18th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Apologies to Bond. SO its kid who’s making his points. Cool man.
1) Glad you agree with me on that point.
2) SO sorry to disppoint you again about the point on evolution. Coz I happen to do abit of study on it. To date, there is NO EVIDENCE on fossils of creatures evolving into another form being found. You may want to do a bit of research on this. Hundreds of new living creatures are being explored. Why not? We still do not know every single organism yet..even though these creatures had already been formed long long ago. An intelligent perspective may be to talk about mutation though. Mutation does happen..but it doesnt change an organism of an species into another species, only a deviation of its form.
3. Nope, I am not going to quote faith as an answer to that why dinosaurs still can exist in religion. But then again, if you do not believe the bible and do not know the bible well, how do you know why dinosaurs are not mentioned in there? Not mentioned = non existent?
4. Do you consider microorganisms living things? If you do, there is indeed living things on other planets. Earth is not the only planet. Why would that prove religion moot?
5. Still dont really get the sex part. Haha..who says we cannot have sex in a fun way? You mean sex is fun so it cannot be a holy thing? Link? Fun cannot equal holy?? Or you mean why animals can have sex with so many other of their kinds while we cannot? Well, thats what sets us apart from animals, certainly chimpanzees as well, because we have morals and animals dont?
6) Ya lor, every argument has a for and against. Did i say there isnt? The reason why I mentioned that is because you seem to be an theist just because you think that there are many reasons why atheism is possible. This is regrettably not very wise. There are many reasons why I want to go swimming today, but if the swimming pool is closed down, I would have made a wasted trip!
And to Nickeo, the cool dude, the implication you mentioned, I am afraid is wrong. Who says non chirstians are not man?? Hey hey, i respect other religions alot. Mayb you get the wrong idea. Not all christians are perfect. But thats the main reason why we are Christians. Not that we can be perfect right away, but it is something which we believe and keeps us going.
Yup, that should be it. I am Not a religion fanatic because i dont see christianity as a religion but that’s besides the point.
Thank you Bond for giving us space to debate on your blog. It is cool having people like us right!!
Cheerios!
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 5:02 am
alrite kid… i’m here to take a shot at debating too, dun mind my typing style, kinda lazy to type properly
and i am a Christian, so i’ll be taking my standpoint from there
1stly, there is no definitive proof of evolution… is there direct evidence of evolution? none at all. no fossil evidence is provided where it shows immediate linking of different species. darwinist optimists proposed that these fossils to prove evolution would be found within a short amount of time. till now none have been found. plenty of fossils are found all the time, yet none show ne proof of evolution at all. considering that evolution says that every single organism came from non-living things, fossils of evolution would have been found everywhere from all stages of life from countless points in time. but there are none. this is strong evidence (or lack thereof) against evolution. on a side note, chimps have 94% similar DNA to us, 99% was a widely quoted percentage, but in actual fact its 94%. not that is changes our similarities however. while the similarity in DNA is remarkable, it doesnt conclude that we came from a related ancestor, or else there would be fossil evidence of it aplenty. after all, there are so many ancient fossils of humans which continually push back the timeline of when homo sapiens 1st appeared. yet none show signs of evolution. the human fossils and other primate fossils are different species.
by saying that dinosaurs dun exist if we believe in religion, i assume ur talking about the 6 days of creation in Christianity. other than that, there’s not much in other religions which explicitly states that dinosaurs did not exist. not even Christianity says that dinosaurs din exist. while some ppl disagree, i believe that the 6 days is figurative, as in 1 day in the genesis account is actually a very broad period of time. and so 6 days of creation equals to 6 times that very large period referred to as a “day”. alot of things in the bible are portrayed figuratively… that no harm will come from consuming bad things, that mountains can be moved. the book of revelation is chock full of symbolism and figurative meanings. it doesnt mean everything in the bible is literal, and so the “days” in the genesis account can be long periods of time, and so dinosaurs can exist within religion.
in religion, there can be aliens, in Christianity no. raelism and scientology are examples of religions which support the theory of aliens, unless u consider them cults, but thats another case. nehoo, NASA has technology which has allowed them to see many areas in the universe, and none have showed signs of life. even life in earth is balanced on a razors edge. ppl used to think life would be to create, considering the advent of newer sciences all the time. yet to create life itself is sth of a colossal roll of a dice. u need amino acids to create life, then u need them to link in the correct way, and only left handed acids will work, rite handed ones will merely kill the process. and thats jus building proteins, having amino acids doesnt mean u’ve created life. the building blocks of life arent alive, and they still need time to evolve into simple cells, which in turn evolve into more complex life forms.. now considering that earth is only a few billion yrs old, evolution couldnt have grown this diverse in such a short amount of time. the same goes for other planets. they may be older, sure.. but life is on a razors edge on a planet that supports life. wat about other planets? most atmospheres would kill life. this is strong evidence of an Intelligent Designer.
on the issue of sex being a holy thing, yea no doubt, as a believer, i believe that its a God-given thing. u see, while every creature reproduces, for humans it is a holy thing. humans have a moral point of reference in God, and so issues of wat is moral abound. sex is immoral if done with someone other than ur spouse cuz God says so. other creatures dun have a moral point of reference becuz they dun “think” in a sense, its jus instinct. thats y we’re above the animals in the bible. creatures do it simply for existence, but God makes it known in the bible that for humans, its supposed to be sth sacred for a couple, for pleasure and reproduction, sth physical for a couple to do and become closer. u can see that in healthy relationships, sex is a healthy part of their lives as well.
on the various comments…
kid, its an urban legend that dolphins have sex for pleasure… they are more sexual than most animals for sure, but pleasure? u cant really gauge that in animals. and again, they dun have a moral framework, while humans do, which leads to my point again.
nickeo, no one insulted ur religion… lets take it in non-religious terms, Jesus Christ was (if not the most) moral living person in the world and changed lives thru the way He lived, now spirituality aside, by following His teachings, its a good thing and in a very general sense, is the rite thing to do. and now from a more religion based standpoint.. the bible says we’re fallen, and we’re lost. it doesnt say we’re morally bad and insulting u, no where in the bible does it say that. and when Christians say that ur lost without God, it means u arent saved and spiritually dead. Christ says Himself that if we believe, we are in a relationship with God again. when ur not saved, its not the fact that ur a bad person, jus lost.. dun assume. i have tons of unbelieving frens, and they know wats wrong and wats rite, but usually, they dun care if they do sth thats wrong, its not that u know wats wrong or rite, thats a given, but the will to submit to Christ and the will to do rite even if it hurts. ok, thats a little preachy already… my point is to debate, so lets get back to that…and no one’s insulting ur integrity… the bible says we’re lost, Jesus said we’re lost, many skeptics know that ppl arent born good, but require discipline to become good.. leave a young kid alone or spoil him and u’ll see a bad outcome. u ask us to respect ur religion, and likewise u should respect ours.. my religion says outrite that we’re lost and that we can be redempted, so its not us that is insulting ur integrity. my religion says itself as a statement (not an insult as u put it) that we’re lost, and my religion is aiming to save ppl again. so plz respect our religion becuz it sys that about everyone, even the Christians, we were once lost but now are saved. by accusing us of insulting u, ur basically insulting my religion, and not respecting it. we never disrespected ur religion, but proclaiming wat it says. thats not disprespect by merely an emancipation of wat we believe. so, respect our religion plz.. i respect all other religions.
indeed there’s different sources of evidence that are for and against diff issues to various extents. i believe there’s plenty of evidence to prove the Christian God. sure, plenty of other evidences also point towards other religions truths and even atheism. other evidences for Christianity.. such as i was an eye witness of someone being healed of blindness, pupils formed out of nowhere, ppl healed and my own spiritual stuff.. bt thats besides the point.
nehoo, those are my views. yea, sorry if i made ne biting comments or sounded offensive, my main aim was to jus point out my views and counter ur views… a simple debate was all i aimed for.
bondevia said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Okok, just to add a point for all of you ok. Wahaha.
I was watching Discovery Science the other day and they were showing a documentary on Homosepiens and Homoerectus.
So before I begin anything, who says there are no fossils to prove evolution my friends? We are homosepiens. And in the show they found evidence of a hybrid, a mixed homosepien and homoerectus. That could actually imply that humans might actually be a hybrid of both species. Resulting in what we are today. Highly intelligent, sociable living things.
Darwin’s Theory of evolution did mentioned something about natural selection. Isn’t it talking about us?
It is proven that we are related to homosepiens by science. It’s not just a theory anymore. So does that mean that Adam and Eve are monkeys? No pun intended here but if what the bible says is true, Adam and Eve being the first human beings. Then according to science, they should be monkeys.
Up till today I have never seen anything that has divine intervention. I have never seen a real person possessed, I have never seen demons, I have never seen god and his wonders. There is no prove to say that god actually exist. Other than the bible itself. But how credible can the information be in the bible? Afterall there are so many flaws. Can the red sea really be split apart?
The human mind is so complex that science cannot entirely decipher what’s in there. And because of this complexities, some people tend to experience stuff that are out of this world. Some of them are even psychological. Eg. Voices in the head, hallucinations etc. And because there isn’t explainations to such ‘phenomenon’ people tend to look at the divine source.
I believe in time to come, with the advancement of science, more things can be proven and explained.
Religion will only become a discipline. As we all know humans are very ill-disciplined creatures and religion is only there to ensure that we have a set of rules to follow.
Just another point, Dolphins making love for pleasure. That’s not an urban legend. How can that be an urban legend? Urban legends are stories, folklore that are thought to be true by circulating them. Like how “white” crocodile swimming in kallang river etc. Dolphins making love for pleasure that’s a theory, and a pretty accurate one. IF that you call that theory and urban legend, then I apologise to say that the bible itself is the biggest urban legend. Ok, not really urban, but no denying it could be legend.
Everyone is entitled to express themselves. So thank you for all your contributions so far.
Ys said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Woohoo
It is getting hot in here. I hope no one is hurt. It is fun debating with you guys!!
To +psycho+, you brought up so many many points. Haha..Some of them theological. maybe a bit too preachy about the reply to nickeo..haa
Evolution vs creation has been debated for centuries! Well, this is a big big field. I dont think many of us are real experts in this field. So shall we skip that? (very tiring to go into the sciency parts…though I am a science student..but I have better things to do ar..evolution doesnt interest me lei..haha)
We are classified under the taxon Homo Sapiens because of human taxonomy done by scientists who dont really believe in religion. Adam and Eve cant be monkeys..LOL!
Like what i said before, never see/haven seen yet doesnt mean non-existent. I haven seen snow..but they do exist. My point is, experience is more important than actually seeing. Though I agree, we are very visual creatures indeed. Credibility of the Bible is another whole new field of discussion. I dont mind exploring with you guys but time is not on my side as I have exams…
Humans are very ill-disciplined creatures. Why so? You thought about it before? WHy are we not inherently good?
Cheers All
bondevia said,
on March 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Haha, don’t get me wrong. I like the idea of you saying “I haven seen snow..but they do exist.” I’ve heard this a couple of times already, and true enough, all of them are from christians.
Snow does exist, it can even be created by man now. It is proven by science. Doesn’t mean you haven’t seen snow means it doesn’t exist at all. Have you seen anyone split the red sea? Can anyone prove it? The answer is simple no. And we can’t just believe that story just because it is in the bible my friend. Haha. What about turning the river nile into blood? I’ve heard of red algea, but I’ve never heard of water turning into blood.
Yea, we may be too inexperience to prove our points well, but that doesn’t mean we have to deprive ourselves from discussing about it, thats how we gain experience by the way Not that I am putting words in your mouth or anything, I’m just making a harmless statement.
Anyhow, to reinforce my point that fossils of evolution do exist, you can take a look at Archaeopteryx. It is acutally half bird and half reptile. Such hybrids prove that evolution actually did take place. What about whales. They are mammals, but they look very much like fishes. There are fossils that shows how whales evolved from land living creatures to sea mammals.
Doesn’t mean the scientist that proved that we are homosepiens didn’t believe in religion means the theory of evolution is faux. They based their theory on fossil evidence and facts. You don’t expect them to look into the bible for explanatiosn right?? Right??
Yea, there are alot of things to discuss.Haha, and I would definitely love to hear more.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 20th, 2007 at 4:49 am
yikes.. 3 comments in a day! wow.. fast.. alrite, to ans bondevia’s 1st comment…
they found a hybrid hm? but if that was the case, many more fossils would have been found of such a hybrid… considering how many ancient human fossils have been found which arent human hybrids but are homo sapiens. so maybe one species of each genus messed around and had a hybrid kid, but the liger is an example of sth which doesnt support evolution, its a tiger and lion who made a hybrid baby. same goes for those 2 humans, they coulda jus ended up having sex and reproduced a hybrid, but that doesnt support evolution
for homo sepiens, we may be related, but relations doesnt necessarily mean u share similar looks. humans and chimps have 94% similar dna.. excluding the hands, i dun think 6% accounts for all the big differences u can see between the 2 species. adam and eve being the 1st humans related to homo sepiens doesnt mean they looked like monkeys. jus as a very general example, adam and eve looked like us and homosepiens looked like chimps, with a 6% diff in dna and with such different looks excluding the hands, it can apply to adam and eve and homosepiens as well.
jus as ys said, wat u havent seen doesnt mean its not true. u havent seen a demon possessed person? i had 3 of them cast outta me last yr. God is invisible, so we cant see Him, and u may have never seen God and His wonders, but i saw a woman born blind, with no pupils.. she was prayed for, and during the prayer for healing, her pupils developed.. black pupils started to form out of nowhere. she’d been blind since birth, but could see at the old old age of 70. my fren’s ex gf had cancer.. we prayed for her and she was healed of her cancer. u may not see them, but i’m an eyewitness of these things.
ppl alwys say there are contradictions in the bible.. i was once agreeing to that too, till i actually read thru it when i was saved. there are explanations for all these contradictions. like one part of the bible says that judas hung himself, another says his bowels gushed out, there’s an explanation for that. another says that saul’s head was put in the temple of ashtaroth, another says the temple of dagon, there’s an explanation for that also. also backing up the bible are all the prophecies, proven to be written many yrs prior the events. the fall of jerusalem was prophesied, and it fell, the fall of babylon and assyria were mentioned b4 they fell. the birth of Jesus, where He’d be born, and even how He’d die was recorded in the old testament books, centuries b4 crucifixion existed. even Jesus made a prophecy in the new testament and it came true less than a century. as for revelation, it speaks of things yet to come, so i cant testify on that.
religion isnt jus a set of rules to follow… in Christianity, its a relationship with God. dun mind if i get a little preachy here, but it says that we’re fallen and bound to worldly pleasures, but having this relationship with God and if we follow these “rules” as u’ve put them, we’ll be free. sexual sin, alcoholism, drugs and all are dealt with many ppl everywhere, they’ve become addicted to watever they’re doing, and are only free once they abstain from it. same goes to these “rules”, where when we follow them, we’ll be free of sin. i’m not saying we’ll be perfect, but we’re free from the hold, even tho we may have thots about it and sometimes even do bad stuff, we’re imperfect after all.
alrite, my bad for using the word urban legend on the dolphins making love for pleasure. its a theory and itsnt proven, but its widely said that its so, even tho its not proven. thats the sense i called it an urban legend. fine… a theory, i’ll use that word, but well, dun mind at least i tell u the point of view in which i used the title of urban legend, that dolphins having sex for pleasure is sth widely circulated as fact even tho it isnt.
ys… nice points.. but the bible itself says we’re inherently not good.. sorry if i’m assuming ur a Christian if ur not =/, we’ve been tainted by sin and thus arent inherently good.. we’re capable of good and evil, becuz of wat we were b4 and cuz of wat sin has done by corrupting us.
on bondevia’s 2nd comment, lol..
sure no one can prove that the red sea was split nor the river turned into blood. but many fanciful things in the bible have been proven in archaeology (did i spell that rite?). king david was thot to be a myth till excavations of the enemies of israel revealed him to be a real person. the bible mentions an underground route to jerusalem.. that too was thot to be fake, so preposterous in the ancient times.. but excavations proved it to be true. and i mentioned earlier about the prophecies. these back up the credibility of the bible.
having a hybrid of reptile and bird doesnt mean that evolution took place. maybe i dun see things from ur perspective in this sense, dun mind to clear them up in ur next comment? but from my view, how did it become a hybrid? if many species of a certain reptile and avian animal mated and produced that, it doesnt mean evolution is true, its jus like the liger. but if ur referring that from this species it split into reptiles and avian animals then thats another thing. again, i’ll needa see wat ur perspective is, or maybe i’m jus not thinking properly, i’m tired and its past 4am. ah well
speaking about birds, they’re strong evidence against evolution. how did birds develop flight? thru natural selection, this would imply that the archaeopteryx or another ancestor of modern birds regularly attempted flight. in that case this would mean that this ancestor and subsequent offspring regularly tried to flap with scales and slowly these grew into feathers which assisted in flight? in evolution, everything came from a priomordial soup, which everything came from, and so flight wouldnt have developed until some species jus continually tried for millions of yrs to fly and eventually did. no offence, but that sounds preposterous, aside from the fact it’d kill off most of the species, even animals wouldnt continually do things that they cant do. like t rex flapping its claws or humans for that matter flapping their hands and trying to fly for a few million yrs. birds are strong evidence of a Creator.
on the case of whales there’s no direct missing link (or links) showing the transition of the walking land animal to sea dwelling mammal, they’ve found fossils of both, but not the missing link in between. mudskippers have land and aquatic abilites, and so do frogs… according to evolution, and with an assumption on whales.. are those 2 species gonna evolve into purely land walking animals in a few million yrs time? ok stupid question, we wun know…but i think u get wat i mean. there is no proof of that those land walking animals became whales. related heavily sure, but then again, relation doesnt mean evolution. hippos and whales are related.
aye, jus counter commenting.. awaiting ur replies… nitez all
Nickeo said,
on March 20th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
As a reply to pyscho:
I have never, in the first place doubted the fact, that Jesus Christ was a man(can you still call him a man?)of great virtue, nor was I skeptical toward his teachings. On the contrary, yes, I do believe what the bible says. The bible says you’re fallen, well I believe human being are a fallen species; the bible says the galaxy was created in 7 days, fair enough, cuz nobody knows for sure if there was a big bang that created the Universe.
Everything that the bible says has it’s sources,(be it historical or mythological), and yes, it is true that it teaches us to be good, and filial, and to love, to be loved.
BUT, one must understand, that the bible isn’t only the religious statement that the world has to offer. One must admit and accept the fact there are other ‘high and devine’ powers present in the spheres of the world, and you musn’t deny the existence of others.
You might wonder why the hell am I saying all this, well it’s simply because although I am true towards my own religion, I accept the fact that there are other religions and highpowers that we shouldn’t doubt or question their existence. For most Chirtians I’ve met, be it my friends, relatives or even my own teachers, they strongly believe that there is only ONE ALMIGHTY, and by not submitting to HIM you soul won’t be saved, and your sins won’t be washed away. The way they preach isn’t ” believe in Christ cuz it’s good and it teaches us to be good”, but it’s rather like “there’s no way you can be free from the clutches of moral decandence and be saved if you do not sumbit to HIM”
now this might not be the way you preach, maybe you’re different, but I dare say that the majority of Chirstians preach this way. It might sound perfectly normal, even mundane to you, but to the ears of other religious believers this is offending. Most of them who preach, in a way or other, be it directly or indirectly put other religions down. They simply would not succumb to the fact that there are other highdevinebeingswemightnotevenknowofintheworld, constantly stressing that the bible is the one and only source of unraveling mankind’s deepest secrets. Now I’m not asking anybody to betray one’s religious believes, but simply underlining the importance of admitting the existence of others.
What ever happened to Zeus of Greece, to Isis of Egypt, to Odin of Denmark, to the thousands of Pagan Gods in history?
They might not be worshipped now, in year 2007 nor remembered.
But do you dare say they’ve never existed at all?
You might not know this, but there is a ancient “nordic bible” originated from Denmark called the Prose Edda which also narrates the the creation of the world and the coming of man and woman and the course of nature. Do we believe what it says? We might not. But do we dare doubt its existence? If you do think twice.
There was never anything wrong with religions ( and that includes Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism and so forth), it’s the believers who are in the wrong. They fight to prove the existence of their Gods, denying others, disrespecting others. It’s the way they preach/teach that offend others, for all religions teach us to be true.I dare not say that there aren’t others who praise their Gods, but seriously,is there space for others in the world of Christianity?
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 1:08 am
ah… i see ur thinking along the lines of “who gives the Christians the rite to say they’re the only correct religion rite?”
i dun blame u, i empathize actually..cuz sometimes i do feel that the way the Christian msg is preached wrong. but lets ans ur questions 1st…
yes we can call Jesus a man, He’s man but also God, there’s no offence in that. and jus to make it clear.. the universe and everything was created in 6 days, not the galaxy… 7 days is usually referred but on the 7th day it was given as a day as rest, no creation was done cuz it was completed already. and i believe its a figurative 6 days.
yes the bible has its source.. u mention historical and mythological… but where’s spiritual? the bible makes it known that God was the main author who used ppl to write the bible, He was the divine inspiration for the books written. the gospel of luke makes it known that its a mixture of both, that he used eye witnesses to help write his gospel, but the fact that it is divine should be readily known.
from the way ur typing, ur talking as tho u believe every religion is true. now i dun deny at all every religion has at least “some” aspects of truth but not the whole truth. only Christianity provides that, now do i sound like someone u’ve met b4? i dun blame u, i understand that it sounds offensive, but if u consider every religion to be true (jus like baha’ism) ur contradicting urself. my religion says that there’s only one God! 1 God in 3 Persons, the form of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all different manifestation of Him. its not that ppl preach that He’s the only Almighty diety, but my religion (the bible specifically) says so. u mentione dearlier u believed in the bible, well, if thats the case then u should only believe in the Christian God like that then. the bible says that there’s only one God, and gives many examples of y other gods are all false. jus cuz we preach it doesnt mean u should hold it against us, my religion explicitly states that, by saying ur offended by wat we preach, ur saying ur offended of my religion.
u see, other religions (most, i’m jus generalizing, dun take offence) require u to do good works to enter their “heaven”, take buddhism, 18 lvls of hell u must go thru and if u lead a good life, then u’ll enter nirvana, which is basically a nothingness, a place where ur free from all desires, now if i read correctly when i was a buddhist last time, his disciples never prayed to him, but believed that they should spread his msg.. so of buddhism is more of nontheistic. no god at all, after all, nirvana is nthness, so that means buddha was free from eveyrthing, and entered into nth, so who’s the high and mighty power who brings ppl into either nirvana or reincarnates. no offence to buddhists. but who controls karma? i mean karma says that if u do bad, it’ll be returned to u, but if u do good, then good things will happen to u. if thats the case, y do bad things happen to good ppl? the bible says that bad things happen to good ppl.. in fact, in 2 books in the bible, nearly the entire books talk about good ppl suffering and related content.
if u are saying that there’s more than one god in existenec, then basically ur calling my God a liar. and my religion also states that my God NEVER lies, but u saying that other gods exist, then ur also saying my God lies all the time, since He created the world, and even till now.
and yes i can daresay zues, isis, venus and all greek gods never existed b4. if they were still existing, i think they’d make themselves quite well known. the scriptures that mention them are heavily contradicted, and unlike te bible, there’s no explanation for these contradictions. the texts that mention them state that they came down to earth very often and showed themselves all the time. zues is well known for flirting with human gals and even making babies with them -.-, thats how hercules was born. well, i’d expect some more hercules related ppl, not to mention an appearance from the greek gods like that. but my God says (not directly) that they’ve never existed outrite. i deny the existence of these gods becuz my God says so, and so does my religion, and every believer of my religion for that matter.
sure, there are many “sacred” texts out there.. the buddhist sutras, which i derived to explain his followers spreading of his teachings. then there’s also my bible, then theres also the Qu’ran or Qur’an, sorry i dunno where the apostrophe goes =/, i dun doubt their existence, but as a believer in Christianity, i only believe that my bible states the truth, that while nething else written may have some agreeable topics, like loving and treating others good, but when sth outrite says sth contrary to my religion, like the existence of other gods, or that Jesus was a prophet and worshipped Allah (again, no offence to muslims, jus an example) then as a true believer of my religion, i’m against it, cuz my God says so, and my God makes it known many times that there’s no other gods and that He never lies. how then, can i be a hypocrite and believe other religions or that there’s other gods?
my bible gives many examples of ppl preaching, and other Christians follow that example. yea i understand some Christians preach offensively, and i understand that, its hard to preach that ur the only rite one without sounding offensive, but hey, thats y my religion talks so much about love, and love is one way we can show others Jesus in us. the bible states so also, Jesus saved ppl thru love, and i folow that example, so does my church. others may not, and i’m sorry for that, but i cant help it. the crusades were an example of how bad Christians can be when they arent focusing on the way Jesus taught us to be.
yes in this world there’s room for Christianity. in fact, this world owes a lot of good to Jesus of Nazareth, and that should be well known. cuz of the true believers of Christianity, not including the hypocrites who spoil the Christian image, there’s so many charities who are funded by Christians, many of the top universities were originally gospel-centred. i’m not saying other religions dun contribute, but while they state that we should work hard and do good, few examples are given. but Jesus showed ALOT of examples, in the bible of His acts of servanthood and good works. He showed an example to the world, which ppl follow till this day. so yes, there’s space for Christianity today, in fact, in the past, present and future there will stil be a need for it. and if Christianity died off, according to my religion, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed miraculously, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them, and this world would degrade morally. am i sounding too proud? this is jus wat my religion says.
rmb, my God never lies, He always tells the truth, and the truth is that there’s no other gods, and that Christianity is very relevant, for all ages. thats wat my religion believes.. so if u take all religions to be true.. and Christianity is a religion.. that means u should be accepting this as fact as well.
kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Okay, I’am back into the fray after a long, long break. Let’s roll.
Fine, lets talk about evolution, since it’s so hot.
Firstly, lets look at it from another way. Instead of aethists like me trying to prove evolution to you, why not you try to disprove it instead?
We state that EVERY living creature must have a parent, or rather, come from another of it’s species. From a normal person’s standpoint, it is perfectly reasonable to believe so. That is how life is created now. So, by telling us that life, suddenly appeared out of nowhere, is a pretty dubious idea that we’d have to reject unless there is someway to prove it.
When you dig into earth, you will find fossil remains. As everyone knows, the older the fossil is, the deeper underground it is found. But for the uninitiated, the explanation is as follows. Let’s say an animal dies, and lays on the floor. The elements will batter against it, wind, rain, mud, sand, and will eventually bury the said corpse. Hence, as time goes by, the corpse gets buried deeper and deeper. Now explain this. Why is it, that in the deepest of the earth archaeologists have dug, we only find fossil remains of plants, followed by dinosaurs, followed by old mammals such as saber tooth tigers and woolly mammoths, followed by present day animals, AND HUMANS? It simply goes to prove that humans have only existed for awhile, there is no archaeological evidence, and since we HAVE to come from somewhere, one would look at the closest thing to us, the monkeys. That is of course, if you are type A who believes that life is created out of nothingness. Psycho, you yourself said that excavations CAN be trusted because you quoted, “many fanciful things in the bible have been proven in archeology”. So taking that stand point, explain why this phenomenon is true.
If we want to argue about the bible(yes I’m going specific here) in the scientific way, lets do this properly. Let’s just read Genesis shall we?
YS, as I understand, you are a science student? Then let me ask a simple question, how do plants feed? Something we all learnt in primary school, photosynthesis! A process in which plants produce food, by mixing water, carbon dioxide and sunlight. Dare I be mistaken…? (Checks books) Yes I am right! Hmm, then why, why can’t I understand the reason why God created plants and all on the THIRD day, and only created the two greater lights, the sun and the moon on the FOURTH? Following your statement, “while some ppl disagree, i believe that the 6 days is figurative, as in 1 day in the genesis account is actually a very broad period of time. and so 6 days of creation equals to 6 times that very large period referred to as a “day”. alot of things in the bible are portrayed figuratively…” Hmm. Maybe the plants invented a way to feed without sunlight for a few thousand years.
Secondly, the moon is a lesser light? Meaning it produces light? Oh right, my primary school textbooks are wrong! >.< The moon doesnt reflect light like I thought it would. Yeap, and thus the moon is always round. I stand corrected!
Thirdly, STILL in Genesis, “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.” Psycho, making statements like you did can get people KILLED! “rmb, my God never lies, He always tells the truth, and the truth is that there’s no other gods, and that Christianity is very relevant..” Ok, say you teach that to a kid, an innocent 10 year old, who believes what you told him, and read s the bible. So one fine day, Tom *i like the name tom* walks into the forest and says “HEY! God said all fruits are meat! And since he NEVER lies….” then proceeds to eat the entire poisonous fruit (Comeon now, DON’T tell me there are NO poisonous fruits, and don’t give me evolution theory, you dont believe in it remember?) and promptly dies. TADUH.
Psycho, don’t make strong statements like that, you can hurt other people. “if u are saying that there’s more than one god in existence, then basically ur calling my God a liar.” as quoted by you. Think of it from a Muslim’s point of view. By stating that, YOU are declaring that their god is liar too. We don’t want a a 2nd Crusade again now, do we. Then again….”Looks at U.S.A and President Bush.”
My friends that was the first Chapter of Genesis. God knows what I find in the next.
Psycho, your phrase “and yes i can daresay zues, isis, venus and all greek gods never existed b4. if they were still existing, i think they’d make themselves quite well known. the scriptures that mention them are heavily contradicted,” is harsh indeed. History has written that the greeks worshipped these gods. Think of it this way, had Jesus not been born, had the Greek Nations not be defeated and reduced from its might at it’s peak, would YOU be a Christian now? For all you know, we may have to worship the Hellenic gods. History proves that these gods, were worshiped by people before. Who are you to say that these are just fairy tales that can be safely discarded? History was changed by these “Gods”, not unlike what Christianity has done. And even though we don’t see them, we don’t see God either. It makes your point moot.
“and if Christianity died off, according to my religion, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed miraculously, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them, and this world would degrade morally. am i sounding too proud?” Yes, that sounds pretty proud. let’s see, what has Christianity done for the world as a whole…hmm. Maybe you could tell me more. On the other hand, WHAT has science done for the world? EVERYTHING. Pretty please, could I rephrase that for you? “and if Science died off, according to my theory, nth would exist, ppl wouldnt be healed by advances in the medical field, ppl wouldnt have demons cast outta them by trained psychologist*Read Woodbridge* , and this world would degrade morally due to the lack of general intelligence. am i sounding too proud? this is jus wat i think for science lor.”
“jus as ys said, wat u havent seen doesnt mean its not true. u havent seen a demon possessed person? i had 3 of them cast outta me last yr. God is invisible, so we cant see Him, and u may have never seen God and His wonders, but i saw a woman born blind, with no pupils.. she was prayed for, and during the prayer for healing, her pupils developed.. black pupils started to form out of nowhere. she’d been blind since birth, but could see at the old old age of 70. my fren’s ex gf had cancer.. we prayed for her and she was healed of her cancer. u may not see them, but i’m an eyewitness of these things.” Wow! That is impressive! Now then, tell God to destroy cancer, tell god to destroy HIV, tell god to rid the world of disabilities. Why? OMGOSH, thats right. We don’t believe in God, why should HE heal us? I agree with you there….but then again. IF he could remove it, WHY did he rob the old lady of her sight in the FIRST PLACE? Ohhh, that girl has cancer? God can remove it? Then why did he put it in her in the first place? It just doesnt make sense, and about your old lady GROWING pupils out of nothing, is nothing short of a world wonder, have you contacted Guinness World Records for the “Fastest Eye Grown” record? Unless you show me scientific proof that this really happened, please, do not just shoot off from your mouth. I could also say, “hey you know, this guy, his arms grew back up again after being chopped off!” Evolution of mutant genes at it’s best now, is that so hard to believe after what you’ve told me?
- Kid
Kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:14 am
I’m not trying to be unfriendly here, it’s simply because the atmosphere has been warmed up, and I’m ready to debate for real now. En Garde!
bondevia said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 6:21 am
Psycho, your statements are very bold and cannot be justified. You are basing your statements on what you have been told. Not everything you say can be proven.
And I agree with Kid, the eyeballs growing thing. No pun intended here. That doesn’t sound real to me. And the 3 demons, I’ve said before the human mind is pretty complex. UNLESS you have obtain supernatural powers and you have evidence to prove it, I will believe you. Otherwise, it’s just another unjustifiable statement made.
Just like a sci-fi story.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
alrite kid, ur back.. long time no see =/
i cant disprove evolution to u, and neither can u prove it, we’d need time as a witness, and none of us have millions of yrs to wait around.. and i did try to disprove evolution to a certain extent, i’ve made my point known in the comments above. can i outrite say that evolution doesnt exist? no, but with the various sources of evidence for and against evolution and creationism, and wat i believe, obviously i make my stand on it, u cant prove evolution, and i’ve given my reasons mentioned above of y i dun take evolution as fact, its still a theory, altho widely accepted among the many ppl as fact.. i may not disprove it, but neither can u prove it, and i’ll admit, neither can i prove creationism outrite, but u cant disprove it outrite either. wat we dunno doesnt mean it hasnt happened. so i’m not gonna do sth i cant do-disprove evolution, but neither can u prove it outrite
as for the fossils, the age of homosapiens is constantly being pushed back all the time, and yea they havent found the human remains from all the way back, but slowly its going back further and further. i’m not gonna assume that it’ll be pushed back all the way till the start of time, but ppl have been saying that humans existed recently, and the bible mentions that we were the final created things on earth.. there’s agreement in that, who’s to say that us coming late in excavations equates us coming last in the genesis account? but i can see ur agreeing with the fact that excavations are trusted, so then, the age where humans came is earlier than neone expected, who’s to say that we wun find older ones and older ones?
and God provides life for everything, He breathed life into adam, and who said He couldnt sustain the plants b4 he let them grow and mature themselves? its made clear that God is the sustainer of every living thing, and being God, that means u can do nething, and if u can do nething, that means u can bend the laws of nature u created. i cant prove it, but hey i am a believer of my religion, so i’ll believe that too, for a God who can do nething, He can sustain things supernaturally.
being a lesser light it doesnt mean that it produces light, the bible doesnt say it produces light. it jus says its a lesser light, how’s that equate to producing light? it reflects light and so is a lesser light. u cant say outrite that its a producer of light, and neither does the bible.
in the fall of man when adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit, their sin caused ALL of creation to be affected. plants and animals alike. a few parts of the bible mention how things were like b4 in the garden of eden. lions not eating other animals, babies playing around snakes with no harm and so and so. plants were affected too, and tho i wun say outrite that they caused some fruits to be poisonous cuz i cant prove it, bt the fall of man caused animals to eat other animals.. so who says fruits cant become poisonous cuz of man’s fall? God told them about giving them all fruits and stuff b4 adam fell.
yea, thats y ppl take offence at that. i’m not saying that their god is a liar, my religion itself is saying that. and i’ve got reasons for believing my religion, so i’d take that as fact also. every religion contradicts heavily with each other, but i’ve got plenty of evidence to show that its true, so i’ll believe it, and wat it says too. so yea, cuz i believe in my religion, i’ll be believing that (no offence to muslims) their god is a liar, but only becuz my religion says so, not cuz i’m offending their religion in particular.
God mentions several times that He’s in control of history, no matter wat may happen. He let israel be wiped off the map and even exiled, but that in turn, showed how much they had gone from their original purpose in God. thru sth bad, God ultimately led it to good. so in the case of the greeks falling, He intended it for it to happen, so that we could worship Jesus. and He sent Jesus to redeem us, and He knew how he was to do it also. Jesus was born cuz God sent Him. the greeks fell and thus the worship of their gods fell, cuz God intended it. God has always made a way to let Himself be known, thru various methods, and so far, its always brought believers. but i dun see that in the greco-roman religions. and these “fairy tales” if true, wouldnt be contradicting each other, cuz that shows that their gods arent in control, and cuz my God says that they dun exist, yea, i believe that too. the greek gods always showed themselves, tho they resided in mount olympus, bt they came down to earth all the time. but no one has seen them netime now. God doesnt show Himself since the beginning till now.
i jus gave examples of wat Christianity has done for the world in my previous post, i suppose u need more examples? morality, democracy, the basic laws of most free countries today (the 10 comandments) and servanthood and love in many ways not taught in other religions. spriitually and morally, the world owes Christianity alot.
and according to ur theory, if science died off that wouldnt mean ppl wouldnt exist, according to wat u believe (evolution i assume) then wat would the de-advent of science stop the evolution of humans? and b4 general intelligence, the 1st Christians and ppl of God were already moral ppl. there was barely ne science that time yet ppl lived morally. so without science, ppl would exist nonetheless from God or evolution in ur stance, and ppl would live morally also. that proves ur point moot.
i mentioned b4 how God uses bad situtations to turn out a good outcome. many verses in the bible also state that belief. one part in the bible talks about a man born blind so that a miracle would be done with him and have ppl believing in Jesus. who says this example cant be used for all the sicknesses in the world and HIV? if u control time and know wats gonna happen, and u let some ppl suffer for a greater good, who r u to say that God isnt doing that with the ppl all over the world? and if ppl sin and have these diseases, its their own fault, they caused it and God has no obligations to heal them is He doesnt see fit. even every single prayer isnt answered all the time, cuz God has His reasons, and when u know everything that will happen and wat will turn out, then those are darn good reasons.
obviously i cant prove it to u, and jus typing, even more so… but here i am trying to at least show my reasons for believing my religion. if i were to lie to other ppl yet protray a Christian image, i would be a hypocrite, and the bible mentions a lot of stuff about being a hypocrite. i’m here defending my religion honestly, y should i go to pure lying to prove more of wat i believe? i’d be a hypocrite like that. and being a believer, then that means i’m well aware i’ll be punished yet dun care but bring in ppl to believe sth false. u dunno me, but i know (and God for that matter) that i dun sink so low, not to mention if i wasnt totally believing in my religion, y would i defend it?
i can show no proof of the lady being healed. i gave an example in the bible of a man made blind so that a miracle could be done, and that applies to the old lady who got her eyesight as well. and i’m not jus shooting off my mouth, i was an eyewitness of those 2 events, and many more. u can jus say that that guy’s arms got chopped of and grew back, but u were obviously not a witness. i was… its not natural, its not mutant genes, so its supernatural, especially when she was being prayed for.
and bondevia, its bold, yes, but hey, as a true proclaimer of my religion, its wat i believe and am told to preach. i am not basing every single statement on wat i’ve been told. there’s documented facts in archaeology, there’s documented facts on every single thing i’ve mentioned. and those theological, preachy stuff yes, are based on wat i’ve been told, but are from the bible to begin with, and me reading my bible compared to wat i’ve been told are in totally diff leagues. i can attest that wat i’ve been taught can be referred to in the bible, so we all take it from the source, with common sense and general knowledge, i see no problems with wat i’ve been “told” as u put it.
and i admit that not everything i say can be proven, but neither can u. i cannot prove the miracles… thats y they’re miracles to begin with. i’m an eyewitness, how can i explain it but thru Christ? we pray to the Christian God for healing, we’re all Christians and pupils develop in front of my own eyes, is it logical? well if u believe in religion, yes it is. u dunno me, so i’d have problems showing u, and not everything is answered when u want it, cuz God has His reasons, and i’ll respect that. u can take it as an unjustifiable statement, cuz u cant attest that i’m honest and jus preaching as my religion says so, but i’ve got a clear conscience, and i know that i’ not lying, being an eyewitness especially, and being a true proclaimer and true believer wat my religion.
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
*teaches… yea, thats the last word i forgot to type.
Kid said,
on March 24th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
“and i admit that not everything i say can be proven, but neither can u.”
Point taken, you cannot convince me to take up the belief of Christianity, and I cannot convince you that your views of your religion is flawed. As a personal rant, I’d add this. You can never out debate a Christian. Why so? For all answers, God works in his mysterious ways, Amen. From my point of view, my facts have to proven, justified and made real.
Following that, *who am I to judge you?*. I was simply showing what happens when someone gives you a prejudiced attitude because you aren’t a Christian. You want proof? How about a forceful breakup of me and my ex girlfriend of 3 years, simply because I wasn’t “SPIRITUAL” enough, and that our “relationship” wasn’t based around a holy purpose. When a Christian friend looks at me “sinning”, listening to heavy metal music, cussing and swearing, watching pornography(now now, don’t tell me you don’t.), ogling at pretty girls, indulging in alcohol and telling me, “Nick, repent, go to church and be saved…or else you’d end up in hell.” Dude, I’am an aethist. I’ll see you after death, laughing as I spent my life enjoyably, conforming only to rules that make my life happy.
“Do not do to others what you do not want others to do unto you.”
You don’t judge me by my religion, and don’t look down on me just because I ain’t a religious person. Hell, you could worship a rock for all you want, as long as you don’t throw it at me. All that “I am holier then thou attitude” is what makes people like me dislike religion. It’s not even a matter of choice in some places. Let’s say, this young kid is brought to church by his parents. He will grow up in God’s grace, and of course, be a Christian. Did he have a choice? What is so different about politics and religion? Doesn’t everyone have freedom to choose what they want to do?
“the world owes Christianity alot.”
That’s the mindset that Christians have that makes this world have less space for this religion. It’s all high and mighty for you guys, and everything else -people included- are merely mortals who are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell. When God asked Saul to destroy the Amalekites, he rejected Saul later because the latter failed to DESTROY EVERY SINGLE LIVING SOUL and instead spared the cows and sheep to be sacrificed in the name of the lord. Are you guys that much better then slaughterers? So if God commanded now that every Christian should wage a holy war and destroy EVERYONE who isn’t a Christian, would you turn on your parents, your friends, your relatives for their refusal to join your religion? That makes a scary world, won’t it? I tremble at the thought of such a massacre.
Nickeo said,
on March 25th, 2007 at 5:25 am
I’ll just skip the evolution part. I’m not really that good in Bio ever since I took enginnering. Like Pyscho has said, yes, I may believe in many things, even the existence of many divine beings. Thus, I can even believe that evolution is where all life began, though it contradicted with my believes that there is a highpower who governs man.
But there doesn’t mean I’m not a stout believer of my own religion, it’s just that in my religion (okay put it this way, I’m Taoist), I was taught to believe, respect, love and accept what is taught to me, but not indulge in it.
Why do I say this, because according to the debate above, none of you are willing to give in to one another. Since none of you can prove completely your own viewpoints, why can’t there be benifit of doubt? You can stand firm on your points, but that doesn’t mean that the other party is completely wrong or being nonsensical.
to Kid:
Just a thought.If evolution was the real engine that started life, did the chicken or the egg come first? This might sound like a cliche, but let’s say the egg came first, who laid the egg? If you said it came from evolution, which I gather would have probably evolved from a huge ostrich egg, where did the ostrich evolve from? Okay you might say it came from dinosaurs, since birds are highly akin to dinosaurs, especially pterodactyls, then where did dinosaurs evolve from? All right if we go furthur backwards, we have to go into the ocean, coz according to the theory, all life form started from water, am I right? If i’m right then it means that the first land dinosaurs crawled out from the ocean, and so dinosaurs started evolution in the ocean, from where?
If we go real far back in time, we’ll get really microscopic, coz the earlist forms, are just microorganisms, such as planktons and zooplanktons. Okay since dinosaur wasn’t a “plant”, we assume it came from an “animal” microorganism, and so we have the ameoba as an example.
Now here’s what I mean, if eggs came from evolution, and not the hand of God( and I mean everybody’s god, not specifically the Christian God), where the heck did it evolve from. For all I know, an ameoba, which is an animal cell, DOESN’T lay eggs to reproduce. It goes through splitting. Hence, if we evolved from animals which in turn evolved from egg-laying prehistoric animals which, like I said, came from a tiny microorganism in the ocean, which DOESN’T lay eggs, where the heck did we come from if not from some unknown power?
Kindly explain?
to Phyco:
Now what you said wasn’t just harsh, it was VERY harsh. How can you call the Islamic God a Liar?
If you are to put it this way, that your god decrees that every other god is liar and that everything he say is true, then can I in turn say that My god came first, and he tells me that YOUR god is a Liar?
Who says your God is the only true God? How can you that the bible is the ONLY truth while others are fake just because the bible said they are? Can I in turn say that my sutras comment that what you belive is just a myth, and that includes the bible? (of course, this is just an examplary statement, the sutras DOESN’T say that).When I said I belive in what the bible says I mean that I do not doubt the existence of other possible belives in the world, and I accept them, wholeheartedly, but that doesn’t mean I have to worship them. Perhaps it’s what my religion taught me: belive, accept, but not indulge.
Now perhaps if you had understood more bout ‘nirvana’ and ‘karma’ when you were a buddhist, you would have known that nirvana isn’t attained in just one lifetime. According to buddhism karva revloves in a cycle of lifetime. It means that what you do in this lifetime may be brought forth into your next life, and even the life after your next life. It doesn’t just end in one life cycle. So karma is a just a collective term for what had accumulated in many lifetimes. If something bad happens to you it doesn’t mean that you have done bad, it simply means that in your karma the “bad stuff” is more than the “good essence”, and now you’re going through the bad ones in this cycle of your life, which was probably brought down from your previous life. You said your GOD has HIS reasons for everything, well, I firmly belive that the Buddha also has his reason for creating karma. Don’t doubt that.
Now there’s something I’m wondering too. We know that cristianity only belives in one GOD, whether he’s any of the three forms it doesn’t matter. Okay that means that Christians deny all forms of witchcraft/wizardry/pagan/hocos-pocus/super powers/relics of power and so forth. Am I right? (for god’s sake some christians dun even let their kids read harry potter, no offence, but I think it’s ridiculous to do that)
Okay If I’m right, explain to me bout this Christian Hero, Charlemagne.
In case you don’t know whose Charlemagne, he was the man who craeted the Holy Roman Empire from the ruins of the ancient Roman empire, Rome and Byzantium.
Charlemagne was acknowleged as the “Defender of the Christian Faith”. In fact, it was he who destroyed the believers of Greek, Egytians, and Nordic Gods. He was the one that brutally suppressed all non-Christian worship. he destroyed and pulled down heathen temples and burned sacred groves of the pagan religion. All who worshiped Odin or Zeus were converted or put to sword. Similarly to the south of Spain, he stopped the advance of Sarecens. He turned back the tide of Islam and put the worshippers of the prophet Mohammed to the sword.
Now, he’s a stout believer of Christ, isn’t he? And now you know where did all the Greek followers have gone. Dead, under his sword. YOu can check the history, I’m not kidding you.
Now here’s what bothering me, If Charlemagne was such a Christian hero, shouldn’t he be loved by God? But why was it, that at the end of his victory over half the world, was he seduced and entralled by the power of a Pagan ring? Okay after his victory, Charlemagne got married. On the say of his wedding he received a gift, a ring in fact. The ring was said to be cursed with such a power that whoever’s wearing it would get Charlemagne’s undying love. Now i’m just gonna skip all the mythical part, but if the Christians have such strong faith in their god, why could such a thing have happened to them? Shouldnt a Christian only believe in God in his heart and not on some ring, which is said to be very pagan? How is it that they could be easily seduced by other belives? If YOUR God is always there, why didn’t HE stop this and save his believer, especially if he’s such a strong defender of Christ?
Lol, I hope what I said didn’t bore you guys, it’s quite long actually. But these are just some of my viewpoints, and doubts, and I hope that everybody’s cool with it, no hard feelings eh?
Nick said,
on March 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Was he eating a sandwich while he narrated that video? Those lip smacking noises were really obnoxious
bondevia said,
on March 26th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
haha, I agree. that guy speaks funny. I think he is nervous, and probably salivating. hahaha
† P§¥KØ †™ said,
on March 27th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
alrite.. i’m back, sorry for the late comment, my internet was cut… nehoo, a reply 1st to kid
agreed, that we cannot convince each other of our own beliefs. but God has His ways for everything. but it isnt jus based cuz of wat i’ve been taught, but for me the experiences i’ve gone thru, the miracles i’ve seen and much historical evidence to back up the credibility of wat i believe in all add up to justify y i believe my religion. i can respect ur views, i was a buddhist b4, and later an atheist, and later agnostic… so at least i can appreciate ur views more than those close-minded Christians u and nickeo have met b4, and face it, i’ve met plenty too. i dun believe in my religion blindly, but there’s overwhelming proof that helps me to ground my beliefs. of course there’s some evidence against Christianity, but in my point of view its not enuff to disprove my religion. obviously i’m biased, but even as an atheist i was a little concerned about how much proof Christianity had to back itself up.. which led to me being agnostic, instead of outrite rejecting religions.
u mentioned about giving a prejudiced attitude cuz u arent a Christian. well unless i’m totally mistaken, or ur not referring to me but other Christians, i did not talk about ur morality. i merely gave reasons for wat i believed in but never questioned ur morality, whether ur moral, immoral or amoral doesnt change the fact that u are an atheist. the fact that ur ex had stayed with u for 3 yrs, i think she was at least trying to lead u into some spirituality, cuz the bible says that we shouldnt be yoked with unbelievers… y? well, taking both of u as an example, considering how different ur belief systems are, it would lead to numerous conflicts, and that she’s trying to stop sinning while u dun care (i’m jus assuming, no hard feelings on this yea?) about sinning and stuff when wat she believes is to stop sinning, it will also lead to conflicts, which ultimately end up on the basis of ur religion. i’m jus assuming that she “gave up” trying to spiritualize u and so broke up cuz she was doing sth against wat the bible mentioned to begin with. on a side note.. listening to heavy metal isnt sinning.. i’m a major fan of black metal and death metal, but as long as i dun embrace those values or enjoy those that actually curse my God (and plenty do) its alrite, everyone’s got their own tastes.. sinning is about actions and thots, and i dun embrace those thots that go against my religion, i’m jus enjoying music, and the beats and those usually messed up lyrics (as long as they dun insult my God), and yes i dun watch pornography, b4 i was a Christian i did watch, but as i’m living a life out for Christ, if i’m watching it wouldnt that lead me to being a hypocrite? i’m a stout believer of my faith, and the fact i’m debating with u already shows i uphold my religion truly. and my religion rejects sexual perversions of all kind, and so i reject porn as well, i can outrite say that i dun watch porn at all, and i havent seen it in yrs… is it that hard to believe that a professing person of his faith would undermine some aspects of his religion but uphold other parts? jus cuz almost every guy who’s got net access has watched porn doesnt mean they continue to do so when their beliefs are changeed. ogling at pretty gals is ok, as long as there’s no lust involved, its jus eye candy, and face it, pretty gals will almost guarantee a double look, but thats cuz their pretty. like a really beautiful artwork which makes u look again, the same can be said for pretty gals. but if there’s lust or ur trying to take a peek at sth, then thats when its sinning. indulging in alcohol, the bible doesnt say outrite its a sin, but gives plenty of reminders its not fitting for us and is sth we clearly shouldnt do as it clouds our judgement. now while u go around sinning and yea no offence, but simply, yes u r on ur way to hell. cuz in heaven there’ll be values that all of us share, but in hell, its for ppl who dun care or reject those values, and from wat u’ve said, it seems like u dun care also. lets jus imagine that God shows Himself to u, thru some miracles or watever. sth supernatural and u know its God Himself. so now that u know God is real, will u make an effort to change ur lifestyle? from wat i read, it seems as u dun care, and that u’ll live ur way the way u want to. so then u’ll go to hell, which is the only place left since u’ll not want to embrace those values we’ll have in heaven. God gives us a choice, and wat i’ve assumed above is that ur choice will be to ignore those values in heaven.
and whoa whoa.. relax, i never looked down on u.. i mentioned above that i never questioned ur morality to begin with. i never look down on neone, jus cuz my religion says unbelievers are spiritually dead does NOT mean i look down on u. and i never mentioned nething in my previous comments to presume that. and when u’ve got the truth and try to spread it, i’ll admit, if its not girded with love (which the bible clearly tells us to have when reaching out) it can sound as tho ur superior, living holy lives while looking down on those who dun believe. have i met these ppl? yes, and even when we share the same religion it still turns me off cuz of how they live. i’ve got my own convictions for believing and i try not to bother with those kinda ppl. and everyone has a choice when it comes to believing.. when u grow up u’ll encounter a lot of ppl who dun share ur views, and that will make u think about whether u truly still hold ur religion as truth, take me and u as an example. cuz i’m a frequent debater i’ve heard urs and bondevia’s views much more times than u’d think. so its nth new to me, but when i 1st encountered these views, it obviously challenged my beliefs and so i sought to find out more about my own religion and found out thru extra-biblical facts plus my own experiences in life that i have good reason to believe in my religion. everyone’s got a choice, and if u really wanna have a better reason for believing in ur own religion than jus cuz u grew up in a family that believed, u’ll naturally want to find out more to back up ur beliefs, and thru these “searches” u’ll encounter more of other ppls beliefs too, either those that support urs or are against urs… these will leave an impression and in the end, we all have the choice to accept wat we believe or reject it. so dun go around saying we dun have choice, cuz in the long run, and as we grow up, we all do. plenty of my frens have left the Christian faith.. many more have joined the Christian faith.. they all had a choice.
and he fact is that the world owes Christianity alot. its a plain fact.. it may seem arrogant, but u cant deny how much good this religion has done. does it sound proud? it does, and i can understand y, but its a fact. i’m not denying that other religions and many atheists have done a lot in which the world owes them too. who’s saying that they’re being proud? everyone’s saying that proclaiming this is proud for Christians but not believers of other religions. and like i mentioned above, i never questioned ur or neone elses morality for that matter. quit assuming that jus cuz i’ve saved i’m oh-so-higher than u. i’m saved, and my faith tells me to profess it to save others to, to love them, to fellowship with them. it doesnt say that we’re high and mighty above every person who’s not saved. u may be smarter than me, u may have an easier life than me, u may have more money than me, u may live in a higher standard place than me. but becuz of wat i believe does that make me higher above u? and lets assume that u r higher in those aspects i mentioned above.. does that mean ur higher above me? i dun think so… so dun assume that we’re high and mighty above u, we’re told to be humble and to love. merely proclaiming facts doesnt mean that we’re saying we’re above u.
and if u’ve read more on wat saul did, u can see he failed on many accounts. God asked saul to destroy every living soul of the amalekites cuz they were despicable to God. does He still love them? yes, but if God allowed the amalekites to live, they’d go on trying to wipe off the israelites from existence, which would then never lead to the birth of Jesus. the culture of the amalekites was evil in God’s eyes, and the amalekites are related to the israelites.. they’re committing genocide and they were well known to attack israel from behind, killing off children, elderly and most probably woman as well. quite cowardly, and they continued to try to kill the israelites over many generations. God decided to deal with them once and for all, and used saul to do it, saul failed. he left the cows and sheep to be sacrificed, i’m thinking that ur assuming y din God appreciate the fact the saul left the animals behind to be sacrificed to Him rite? well, God said the amalekites were an abomination and their cattle and livestock, raised in an abominable culture would have to be destroyed as well. and for the issue of sacrificing them, God alrady told saul to destroy every single thing of the amalekites, He said that the amalekites were an abomination. saul kept the livestock to sacrifice to God, thats as good as steaing and giving it to God. many parts of the bible mention that God desires sacrifice, and even david mentioned that he would never sacrifice to God if it cost him nth. God wanted no part of the amalekites and saul had the cheek to try that. he din sacrifice at all, but merely looted the amalekites to give to God. in our modern context, thats as bad as stealing from a guy and giving it to charity. i think u’d agree that its very low of a person to do that. well considering saul did that not to charity but to God Himself, its quite an offence, esp when u purposely disobey His commands. and yes we are much better than slaughterers, thats in the old testament, we’re in the new testament. in the old testament times living like the way we are now would have completely led ur nation being killed off, and so God played by the rules of humans yet in a very humane way. God told the israelites that whenever they were to invade a place, a peace offering must be given 1st, and if that offering was accepted, then no need for an invasion. thats merciful, esp in those times. plus God gave the amalekites a lot of time to repent. from the exodus of israel all the way to david’s time, the amalekites still were attempting genocide, and if God let them live it would have cost the nation of israel their lives and the world’s Savior. so its justified. and if God for some reason told us that we’d have to wage a holy war and kill off everyone we knew and loved becuz they dun wanna acknowledge God then we would. i mean who r we to disobey God? but of course that will never happen, God tells us to spread His gospel thru love and grace and gives countless verses against violence. God would never tell us to wage a “holy war” for no reason. and the fact that God will never say that makes ur point moot. if there was no world war II s’pore and most of asia would be under japan and europe would be under germany’s rule. the allied powers waged war cuz it was for a good and justified purpose, and same goes with the case of a holy war if God should ever tell us that. but we are told to stop violence and spread the gospel thru love and peace. so if we are true followers of our religion, then it would never lead to a holy war to begin with.
and replying to nickeo…
i never claimed bondevia or kid were nonsensical. in fact they did give true and good points, but thru wat i know and experienced, i dun take the same views as them. in debate above we did give points of y we believed in our respective belief. there’s bits and pieces of truth in wat we’ve all said. of course, becuz of my beliefs, i assume wat i’ve said is the truth, but i dun deny the points they gave for not believing had no truth at all, there is evidence to a certain extent, but there is evidence for wat i believe in too. u see, if i were to “give in” then that’d would mean that my religion is false and so have been proclaiming sth that fake. but i’ve experienced supernatural stuff, miracles and have various sources of evidence to back up wat i believe in, so for me i know it to be true, and if sth is saying otherwise, obviously i must have a reason to believe otherwise, and so thats the basis for our debate. u also mention that wat u believe in contradicts ur religion. now when sth contradicts sth, it means the core beliefs of one thing is wrong..so in this case that would mean either evolution is wrong or taoism is wrong, u must have reasons for believing taoism and evolution, but becuz u said it contradicts ur religion, then the core aspects of one side must be wrong. if ur a stout believer of taoism, and u said that it contradicts evolution, then if u r to believe in taoism completely then evolution must be rejected. but u also mention to not indulge in ur religion… fine, but if u believe in some parts of ur religion but not other parts, that means u dun totally believe ur religion. i’m not saying that ur a hypocrite and i apologize if my tone makes it sound like it, but how can u say ur a stout believer of taoism if u dun completely believe in all aspects of it?
and in ur reply to kid about evolution, u’ve added good points of y i dun believe it.. well, moving on…
1st of all, i did not say that the islamic god is a liar. i said becuz of wat i believe and know is true (tho its noticeable u, bondevia and kid dun share my views) and assuming that the islamic god said he never lies, then becuz of my beliefs the islamic god would be a liar. ok, lemme rephrase that then.. becuz of wat i believe, there is only one God, which is the Christian God, and no other gods are liars cuz they do not exist in the 1st place. and my God never “came 1st” to tell me that other gods were liars. the name Jehovah means “I AM who I AM”.. and Yahweh means “He who is” and from wat we read in the bible, it means that my God has always existed, and that He never “came 1st” but was always there. and becuz of my beliefs, no other gods came after Him becuz there were none in the 1st place. and my God never said ne god was a liar, but that none of them exist., lets get that stright alrite?
who says my God is the only true God? Himself… and like i’ve mentioned in the previous comments, i have good reasons for believing my religion, and u’ve got ur own reasons for believing wat u believe in. sure u can say that IF the sutras mentioned that the bible was a myth then u’d have reason to believe it. but do u have proof of wat the sutras say? for me its supernatural healings and miracles and prophecies and so and so that give me this proof. and i’ve given points of y i believe them above. if u had supernatural proof (forgive me, but i doubt it) that the sutras are true then the sutras would be truth, but from wat i experienced and have had happened to me, the bible is truth.
i do know wat karma is about… and i know its attained thru the cycle of reincarnation. but if thats the case, in buddhism, who created the universe? who created karma? buddha himself was alive and died.. and u said that he created karma.. unless i was a much-mistaken buddhist the sutras dun say the buddha created karma.. if he lived as a man then who created nirvana? who controls karma? and if every life is to slowly “burn off” this bad karma u had in previous lives… let me ask, wat were u “burning” off in ur 1st life? if u had no bad karma b4, then wouldnt that mean it would lead u to nirvana straight away? i said my God has His reasons for everything and becuz i believe in that, i must reject that buddha was divine and that karma exists. if not i’m not a true believer of my religion, merely believing in some aspects but not others.
and no ur wrong -.-…Christianity does not deny all forms of magic and witchcraft. in fact if ur a Christian, u must acknowledge these things.. in the bible there’s many places where ppl did magic and stuff.. but makes it clear that its not from God but from demons and satan. so we acknoledge these things as real, but not of God. and the fact that some Christian parents dun let their kids read harry potter is really ridiculous.. its jus paranoia. i’ve got every title of the harry potter books and i’m not an outrite fan, but i do enjoy the series. i’ve got many books of ghost stories, magic, vampires, werewolves, aliens.. and man, many of them are really good books. i can enjoy the series and wat i read, but as long as i do not profess it if its contrary to wat i believe in or attempt the things which the bible says we arent supposed to then its perfectly alrite.
well, its not only charlemagne who’s loved by God jus becuz he’s a Christian. God loves everyone, no matter how bad they turn or how far they stray from Him. now He may despise how bad the ppl have turned and even annihilate them if He sees fit, but He still loves them nonetheless (note, referring to the amalekites), and becuz He loves them and respects them He lets them pick their own path. cuz He respects our decision this is y He still allows satan to cause problems, and lets say kid for example, kid said he wants to live his life the way he wants it, then God will let him, but let him pay the consequences as well.
on the part if him being seduced… now y dun u ask the israelites how they faltered in their faith? God had given them fire, clouds, manna and delivered every city that belonged to israel to them. yet they also faltered in their faith and left God. even solomon, the wisest king fell to the pagan religions and left God. my very good fren, who was once a strong Christian, has witnessed as much as i have, the miracles, the deliverance of spirits and demons and the such and u know, she’s left the Christian faith too… becuz her bf wasnt a Christian and she jus let her faith die off. when ur in power, u can easily lose focus, and charlemagne maybe had it happen to him. my God was always there, but if u want to, u can ignore God, and i assume thats wat charlemagne did.. He was there to constantly remind solomon who helped him to the throne and who gave him wisdom, but solomon never listened. the israelites ignored God and in the end were taken away as slaves of assyria and babylon. becuz charlemagne ignored God, then God let him. God says He’ll always be there and use different ways to connect with ppl… if the wisest king was so unwise to ignore God and forget Him, then it can happen to charlemagne as well. u ever heard of a guy called charles templeton? he was the closest fren of billy graham, a world famous preacher and healer. both studied together and helped in missionary work and both experienced many miracles together. yet charles templeton left the Christian faith, while billy graham went on in faith. ppl have their reasons for leaving the Christian faith, no matter how much they’ve seen and know true it is… and altho God may be there to remind u, to “prod” u to rmb Him, if u continually choose to ignore Him, He’ll respect ur decision. cuz heaven is where we’ll be with God all the time, and if u dun wanna be with Him, then hell’s the only place left to go, where u can ignore Him for all eternity. we will never know the true reason for charlemagne leaving the Christian faith, but i can be sure God was there to remind Him but charlemagne chose to ignore it. sometimes i feel like leaving the Christian faith too, but God always has helped me find my way back. another testament of y i still choose the Christian faith.. whenever i’m down or about to leave the Christian faith, sth supernatural (God) will always help me find my way back. and yea, i’ll admit, i’ll never be able to prove that to u, but hey its real and i know it to be true. so i can assume God did His part for charlemagne, jus as He did for solomon, jus as He did for my fren, and jus as He continually does so for me.
UnveilYourEyes said,
on March 29th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Hi Kid,
Greetings. First and foremost I would like to comment on your intelligence. What I am about to say might not necessarily be in line in what you guys are discussing or debating. But I thought it might be a good one to stimulate your thoughts.
I am confidence to say that all of humanity in one way or another, worships something. That is the very elemental, yet also an incomprehensable fact. I am convinced that all human beings worship, be it education, career, idols, wealth, fame, materialistic stuffs, musical bands, talents, self, friends, politicians, philosophy and the list goes on. It is then, not too much if I ask you to acquiesce with me that the very fundamental of the human nature longs to worship. The etymology of the word worship basically means:- to bow down, revere, fall down, stoop, crouch, adore, honor, assuming a physical position or an inward attitude or expression. The word worship is applied generally in worshipping God. Hence, if it is so, it would not be foreign or even outrageous to say that we (humanity) are created by God, is it? Maybe you believe in “The Big Bang” and Evolution theory, however if this is so, from ape to human, who then birth to longing in humans to worship?
Similarly, I wouldn’t deny the fact that the word worship can also be accustomed to something or someone, you too may agree with me that deep within our spirit we feel voidness, emptiness that we cannot do anything about, and anything beside worshipping God, doesn’t bring wholeness. I am well aware that you are sick and annoyed with Christians who declares that GOD ALMIGHTY is the only one but I am speaking from the truth (my truth for now at least). I hope at this point in time I still have your peace and I am not too harsh, pardon me if I am. Anyhow, I hope I did bring you closer in the understanding of the Divine Being.
Ciao Tudos,
UnveilYourEyes
Unveil said,
on March 29th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Hi Kid,
Greetings. First and foremost i would like to comment on your intelligence, i might not be that intellectual but bear with me ya? What i am about to say might not necessarily be in line in what you guys are discussing or debating. It might be a good point to stimulate your thoughts thought. At any rate that’s what i think.
i am confidence to say that all of humanity in one way or another, worships something. That is undeniable, yet incomprehensable fact. So i am convinced to say that all human being worship, it might not certainly be God, it could be education, career, idols, wealth, fame, power, materialistic stuffs, musical bands, talents, self, friends, politicians, philosophy and the list goes on. It is then, not over the top if i ask you to acquiesce with me that the very fundamental of the human nature, longs to worship.
The etymology of the word worship basically means:- to bow down, revere, fall down, stoop, crouch, adore, honor, assuming a physical position or an inward attitude or expression. The word worship is applied generally in worshipping God. Hence, if it is so, it would not be foreign or even outrageous to say that we (humanity) are created to worship is it? Created by God to worship Him would then make sense here wouldn’t it? Then you might tell me about the Evolution theory, however if this is so, from ape to human, who then birth the longing to worship in human? Did we evolve to cope with the changing situations and environments and somehow worship is *poof* birth in us? Worship whom then?
Similarly, i wouldn’t deny the fact that the word worship can also be accustomed to something or someone, you too may agree with me that deep within our spirit we feel voidness, emptiness that we cannot do anything about, and anything beside worshipping God, doesn’t bring wholeness. i am aware that you are sick and annoyed with christians who declares that their GOD ALMIGHTY is the only DIVINE ONE, but i am just speaking the Truth. Being mindful that many differs from my point of view, and to avoid any misunderstanding that i am forcing the Bible and God down your throat. i should make myself clear and declare that i am speaking from the Truth, i believe in. Acknoweledge this, that there are indeed innumerable things which are inexplicable and will continue to remain alienated for as long as all humanity lives.
Also i would like to reinforce the point that, being a christian, DOESN’T AT ANY POINT, AT ANY TIME AND AT ALL makes me higher, holier, better or greater than anyone or everybody, infact i’m the lowest. When christian claim that they are stout believers, it doesn’t mean they are proud that they are saved, because salvation is by God’s grace and not by deeds, thus they have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to be proud. You claim that unless we can prove something supernatural to you, you wouldn’t buy it. Sorry to say, we can’t prove it to you, we can tell you of all the testimonies, we can show you where you can experience the supernatural. However, proving will deem impossible because each supernatural encounters differs from the other. Take note, that supernatural will not take place, if you have harden your heart and choose not to believe in it. How can God work something or show you something, if you choose not to want it. God is a gentleman He will not come to where He is not welcome, He will not force into where He is not wanted. Same for freewill, whatever you choose, though it might not be His will, He loves you enough to let you go with what you choose. i hope i haven’t been harsh and quick in bringing my point across, pardon me if i did. Anyhow, i hope it did bring you closer in understanding of the divine being, God.
Ciaos and good day.
Regards,
UnveilYourEyes
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